Discussion:
"Plagiarism Software Unveils a New Source for 11 of Shakespeare’s Plays" (recent article)
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g***@gmail.com
2018-02-09 08:08:54 UTC
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http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/168223
laraine
2018-02-09 20:51:25 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/168223
This looks to be a major story.

"Independent scholar Dennis McCarthy and LaFayette College professor June
Schlueter used WCopyfind software to compare passages from Shakespeare’s
plays with George North’s 1576 unpublished manuscript, A Brief Discourse of
Rebellion, about the dangers of rebelling against a king. They were able to
trace more than 20 passages back to the essay, including Gloucester’s opening
soliloquy in Richard III, Macbeth’s comparison of dog breeds to different
classes of men, the Fool’s Merlin prophecy in King Lear, and the events
surrounding Jack Cade’s fatal fight with Alexander Iden in Henry VI."

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/feb/09/shakespeare-plagiarism-software-george-north

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Another article in the New York times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/07/books/plagiarism-software-unveils-a-new-source-for-11-of-shakespeares-plays.html

'Shakespeare describes Cade’s final days in “Henry VI, Part 2,” in which he says
he was starving and eating grass, before he was finally caught and dragged
through the street by his heels, his body left to be eaten by crows. Scholars
have long thought that Shakespeare invented these details, but all of them are
present in a passage from North’s “Discourse”'

They didn't mention anything about Marlowe here.

....

'Mr. McCarthy also argues that North’s “Discourse” may have inspired one of
Shakespeare’s most iconic characters, the Fool in “King Lear.” He points to the
memorable passage in which the Fool and Lear are lost in a storm, and the Fool
recites a prophecy that he attributes to Merlin.

Scholars have long puzzled over the recitation, which doesn’t seem to match any known prophecy of Merlin’s. In their book, however, Mr. McCarthy and Ms. Schlueter claim the passage was inspired by a version of Merlin’s prophecy that North includes in his “Discourse” to present a dystopian view of the world “turned up side down.”'
Don
2018-02-11 21:36:56 UTC
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Post by laraine
Post by g***@gmail.com
http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/168223
This looks to be a major story.
"Independent scholar Dennis McCarthy and LaFayette College professor June
Schlueter used WCopyfind software to compare passages from Shakespeare’s
plays with George North’s 1576 unpublished manuscript, A Brief Discourse of
Rebellion, about the dangers of rebelling against a king. They were able to
trace more than 20 passages back to the essay, including Gloucester’s opening
soliloquy in Richard III, Macbeth’s comparison of dog breeds to different
classes of men, the Fool’s Merlin prophecy in King Lear, and the events
surrounding Jack Cade’s fatal fight with Alexander Iden in Henry VI."
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/feb/09/shakespeare-plagiarism-software-george-north
------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/07/books/plagiarism-software-unveils-a-new-source-for-11-of-shakespeares-plays.html
'Shakespeare describes Cade’s final days in “Henry VI, Part 2,” in which he says
he was starving and eating grass, before he was finally caught and dragged
through the street by his heels, his body left to be eaten by crows. Scholars
have long thought that Shakespeare invented these details, but all of them are
present in a passage from North’s “Discourse”'
They didn't mention anything about Marlowe here.
....
'Mr. McCarthy also argues that North’s “Discourse” may have inspired one of
Shakespeare’s most iconic characters, the Fool in “King Lear.” He points to the
memorable passage in which the Fool and Lear are lost in a storm, and the Fool
recites a prophecy that he attributes to Merlin.
Scholars have long puzzled over the recitation, which doesn’t seem to match any known prophecy of Merlin’s. In their book, however, Mr. McCarthy and Ms. Schlueter claim the passage was inspired by a version of Merlin’s prophecy that North includes in his “Discourse” to present a dystopian view of the world “turned up side down.”'
Yes, it seems that another source Shakespeare may have used may have been found.

But the evidence isn't that compelling, ISTM, for all the same old arguments:
1) there was no compelling reason an unpublished article couldn't be "borrowed"; 2) no way to confirm that a third source wasn't involved, informing the other two or more, so maybe Shakespeare and North borrowed from even earlier sources?; 3) maybe "Shakespeare" wasn't alone in composing, but employed others, too?; 4) probably no real chain of evidence linking Shakespeare to North's manuscript? 5)maybe it was George's relatives, Roger and Thomas, also a writer living in the same house, who supplied the sources?
laraine
2018-02-14 01:43:18 UTC
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Post by Don
Post by laraine
Post by g***@gmail.com
http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/168223
This looks to be a major story.
"Independent scholar Dennis McCarthy and LaFayette College professor June
Schlueter used WCopyfind software to compare passages from Shakespeare’s
plays with George North’s 1576 unpublished manuscript, A Brief Discourse of
Rebellion, about the dangers of rebelling against a king. They were able to
trace more than 20 passages back to the essay, including Gloucester’s opening
soliloquy in Richard III, Macbeth’s comparison of dog breeds to different
classes of men, the Fool’s Merlin prophecy in King Lear, and the events
surrounding Jack Cade’s fatal fight with Alexander Iden in Henry VI."
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/feb/09/shakespeare-plagiarism-software-george-north
------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/07/books/plagiarism-software-unveils-a-new-source-for-11-of-shakespeares-plays.html
'Shakespeare describes Cade’s final days in “Henry VI, Part 2,” in which he says
he was starving and eating grass, before he was finally caught and dragged
through the street by his heels, his body left to be eaten by crows. Scholars
have long thought that Shakespeare invented these details, but all of them are
present in a passage from North’s “Discourse”'
They didn't mention anything about Marlowe here.
....
'Mr. McCarthy also argues that North’s “Discourse” may have inspired one of
Shakespeare’s most iconic characters, the Fool in “King Lear.” He points to the
memorable passage in which the Fool and Lear are lost in a storm, and the Fool
recites a prophecy that he attributes to Merlin.
Scholars have long puzzled over the recitation, which doesn’t seem to match any known prophecy of Merlin’s. In their book, however, Mr. McCarthy and Ms. Schlueter claim the passage was inspired by a version of Merlin’s prophecy that North includes in his “Discourse” to present a dystopian view of the world “turned up side down.”'
Yes, it seems that another source Shakespeare may have used may have been found.
1) there was no compelling reason an unpublished article couldn't be "borrowed"; 2) no way to confirm that a third source wasn't involved, informing the other two or more, so maybe Shakespeare and North borrowed from even earlier sources?; 3) maybe "Shakespeare" wasn't alone in composing, but employed others, too?; 4) probably no real chain of evidence linking Shakespeare to North's manuscript? 5)maybe it was George's relatives, Roger and Thomas, also a writer living in the same house, who supplied the sources?
I couldn't help thinking about the story of Mozart hearing
a somewhat secretive performance of a complex polyphonic
choral work in the Sistine Chapel, memorizing it, then later
transcribing it (and apparently improving it).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miserere_(Allegri)

The actual history of North's manuscript might make a good
research project (or work of fiction). The NY Times article
only says that the British Library purchased it in 1933.
McCarthy thinks it was written near Cambridge.

This article notes about the procedure that

"Essentially, it is not a situation where passages or lines
were verbatim. What they did find that was that the software
picked out "common words and phrases between North's
manuscript and Shakespeare's plays," said Fast Company.
They found "the pattern of words" convincing, said Murphy,
which appear to be lifted from North's tome. (Who was North?
He served as an ambassador to Sweden in the late 1500s, said
Murphy.)"

http://techxplore.com/news/2018-02-ado-words-shakespeare-sleuths-manuscript.html

(One also wonders about differences between plagiarism
software, of which there seem to be many. Brian Vickers
used another package when evaluating Edward III.)

C.

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