Discussion:
Apes
(too old to reply)
Donald Cameron
2020-05-24 21:11:57 UTC
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In the following post, Art N., wearing several hats, is evidently
doing his fractile thing, in which I notice appears reference to
"apes," at one point, which he doesn't expand on.

(snip)

CHAPTER XXVII: Who Master Peter and his Ape were, with the Ill Success
that Don Quixote had in the Adventure of the Braying, which ended not
so well as he would, or thought for

CID HAMET, the chronicler of this famous history, begins this chapter
with these words: ‘ I swear like a Catholic Christian.’ To which the
translator says that Cid his swearing like a Catholic Christian, he
being a Moor, as undoubtedly he was, was no otherwise to be understood
than that, as the Catholic Christian, when he swears, doth or ought to
swear truth, so did he, as if he had sworn like a Catholic Christian
in what he meant to write of Don Quixote, especially in recounting who
Master Peter and the prophesying ape were, that made all the country
astonished at his foretelling things. He says, then, that he who hath
read the former part of this history will have well remembered that
same Gines de Passamonte whom Don Quixote, amongst other
galley-slaves, freed in Sierra Morena, a benefit for which afterward
he had small thanks and worse payment from that wicked and ungrateful
rout.

This Gines de Passamonte, whom Don Quixote called Ginesillo de
Parapilla, was he that stole Sancho’s Dapple, which, because neither
the manner nor the time were put in the First Part, made many
attribute the fault of the impression to the author’s weakness of
memory. But true it is that Gines stole him as Sancho slept upon his
back, using the same trick and device of Brunelo’s, whenas Sacripante
being upon the siege of Albraca, he stole his horse from under his
legs; and after Sancho recovered him again, as was showed.

This Gines, fearful of being found by the justices that sought after
him, to punish him for his infinite villanies and faults, that were so
many and so great that himself made a great volume of them, determined
to get him into the kingdom of Aragon, and so covering his left eye,
to apply himself to the office of a puppet-man; for this and juggling
he was excellent at. It fell out so that he bought his ape of certain
captive Christians that came out of Barbary, whom he had instructed
that upon making a certain sign he should leap upon his shoulder, and
should mumble, or seem to do so at least, something in his ear. This
done, before he would enter into any town with his motion or ape, he
informed himself in the nearest town, or where he best could, what
particulars had happened in such a place or to such persons, and,
bearing all well in mind, the first thing he did was to show his
motion, which was sometimes of one story, otherwhiles of another; but
all merry, delightful, and familiarly known. The sight being finished,
he propounded the rarities of his ape, telling the people that he
could declare unto them all things past and present; but in things to
come he had no skill. For an answer to each question he demanded a
shilling; but to some he did it cheaper, according as he perceived the
demanders in case to pay him. And sometimes he came to such places as
he knew what had happened to the inhabitants, who, although they would
demand nothing, because they would not pay him, yet he would still
make signs to the ape, and tell them the beast had told him this or
that, which fell out just by what he had before heard, and with this
he got an unspeakable name, and all men flocked about him; and at
other times, as he was very cunning, he would reply so that the answer
fell out very fit to the questions; and, since nobody went about to
sift or to press him how his ape did prophesy, he gulled every one and
filled his pouch. As soon as ever he came into the vent he knew Don
Quixote and Sancho, and all that were there; but it had cost him dear
if Don Quixote had let his hand fall somewhat lower when he cut off
King Marsilius his head and destroyed all his chivalry, as was related
in the antecedent chapter. And this is all that may be said of Master
Peter and his ape.
-------------------------------------------------------
(snip)

So in an aside to his sides, I make bold to mention that apes were
evidently regarded as a favorite topic at the time, evidently due to
their exotic appearance along with flourishing maritime trade in
London, plus some derogatory aspersions since the Middle Ages.

Scholars notice that "apes" could have a meaning in Shakespeare
attribution lore, from "infinite ape," that theoretically could
reproduce at a typewriter Shakespeare's canon, if given enough time,
to Jonson's reference about a "Poet Ape" borrowing" from another
writer, which authorship doubters suppose must refer to Dekker, not
Shakespeare.

(quote)
Poor POET-APE, that would be thought our chief,
Whose works are e'en the frippery of wit,
From brokage is become so bold a thief,
As we, the robbed, leave rage, and pity it.
At first he made low shifts, would pick and glean,
Buy the reversion of old plays; now grown
To a little wealth, and credit in the scene,
He takes up all, makes each man's wit his own.
And, told of this, he slights it. Tut, such crimes
The sluggish gaping auditor devours;
He marks not whose 'twas first: and after-times
May judge it to be his, as well as ours.
Fool, as if half eyes will not know a fleece
From locks of wool, or shreds from the whole piece!

Ben Jonson
(unquote, from http://shakespeare-evidence.com/meet-poet-ape/)
Phil Innes
2020-05-30 12:11:18 UTC
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"So in an aside to his sides, I make bold to mention that apes were
evidently regarded as a favorite topic at the time, evidently due to
their exotic appearance along with flourishing maritime trade in
London, plus some derogatory aspersions since the Middle Ages."

Well, Donald Cameron — (I think our clans are on speaking terms.)

"Ape" appears to be much older, and I have a Chaucer citation somewhere:

Cant. T 13370

An old phrase was to put an ape into a person's hood or cap, signifying making a fool of him. Apes were formerly carried on the shoulders of fools and simpletons, and Malone adds that it was also a term of endearment.

Tyrwhitt [Chaucer Scholar] considers "win of ape" in Cant T 16993 to be the same as vin de singe

Otherwise there is p.32 Arthour and Merlin "And that sche were no michel ape"
Donald Cameron
2020-05-30 17:21:30 UTC
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On Sat, 30 May 2020 05:11:18 -0700 (PDT), Phil Innes
Post by Phil Innes
"So in an aside to his sides, I make bold to mention that apes were
evidently regarded as a favorite topic at the time, evidently due to
their exotic appearance along with flourishing maritime trade in
London, plus some derogatory aspersions since the Middle Ages."
Well, Donald Cameron — (I think our clans are on speaking terms.)
Cant. T 13370
An old phrase was to put an ape into a person's hood or cap, signifying making a fool of him. Apes were formerly carried on the shoulders of fools and simpletons, and Malone adds that it was also a term of endearment.
Tyrwhitt [Chaucer Scholar] considers "win of ape" in Cant T 16993 to be the same as vin de singe
Otherwise there is p.32 Arthour and Merlin "And that sche were no michel ape"
To ape myself, who also goes by "bookburn", "Dim Witte", "buzz," and
"ratfish," it seems that the concept of poetic ape could go beyond
Jonson or Chaucer to Plato, where in "Ion" he repeats how Socrates
borrows from Homer and Ion as they are inspired by the muses.

Re member reading in Plato's "Ion" about how Socrates, the critical
philosopher, was going to bait Ion, the popular actor, into one of his
devastating dialogs with questions, this time about how actors got
their interpretations right. But Socrates doesn't devastate him.

Evidently, Ion didn't try to use logic to apologize or rationalize as
contemporary philosophers were doing, just said he and other rhapsodes
got poetic inspiration from the muses. And they inspire each other
and auditors in a chain.

Wikipedia mentions that Ion argues that ". . .the rhapsode “dangles
like a lodestone at the end of a chain of lodestones. The muse
inspires the poet (Homer in Ion’s case) and the poet inspires the
rhapsode.”[3]

Maybe not an accident that we see a "chain" also in how Plato echoes
Socrates, who echoes Homer?

Something tells me that Shakespeare's--and others'--"borrowing" was
not just about pirating plays when there was no copyright protection
or publication, but more like what Oscar Wilde said about "imitation
being a form of flattery"; that they were all together in a creative
process?

Not sure what Jung's concept of a collective mind and archetypes does
to support inspiration by the muses, but in "The Sacred Wood*, T. S.
Eliiot does claim more importance for classical traditions, if I got
it right.
John W Kennedy
2020-05-30 18:51:12 UTC
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Post by Phil Innes
"So in an aside to his sides, I make bold to mention that apes were
evidently regarded as a favorite topic at the time, evidently due to
their exotic appearance along with flourishing maritime trade in
London, plus some derogatory aspersions since the Middle Ages."
Well, Donald Cameron — (I think our clans are on speaking terms.)
Cant. T 13370
An old phrase was to put an ape into a person's hood or cap, signifying making a fool of him. Apes were formerly carried on the shoulders of fools and simpletons, and Malone adds that it was also a term of endearment.
Tyrwhitt [Chaucer Scholar] considers "win of ape" in Cant T 16993 to be the same as vin de singe
Otherwise there is p.32 Arthour and Merlin "And that sche were no michel ape"
The oldest in the OED is ca. 700.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
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