Discussion:
sense, non-sense, sense
(too old to reply)
Donald Cameron
2020-11-19 10:55:49 UTC
Permalink
I find interesting the following bit from latest by Art.

(quote)
To him selfe they sent immediately that which they call Scytala...
The Scytala is in this sort. When the Ephori doe send a Generall,
or an Admirall to the warres, they cause two litle round staues
to be made [etc.]... These two litle staues they call Scytales.
Ibid., This litle scrowle of parchment
also is called as the rowle of wodde, Scytala.
...........................................................
<<The *SCYTALE* is the oldest known military ciphering method.
In the year 404 B.C. only one of five messengers survived the
grueling march from Persia back to the Spartan general *LYSANDER*.
The messenger gave *LYSANDER* his belt and *LYSANDER* winded his
belt around the so-called *SCYTALE*. Thus he was informed that
the Persians planned an attack, he prepared for this attack
and was able to fend it successfully.>> - Simon Singh
(unquote)

No doubt the ancients very well knew about secret messages, especially
ones that had to be deciphered. The "scytale" story seems to reveal a
way to communicate between front lines intelligence and generals in
the rear. Evidently could make a message atop a "belt" wound around a
scytale, which would make sense only when wound around another.

By Shakespeare's time, probably they doubled-down on that and had
ciphering with more than one "scytale," making sense-non-sense-sense
again, but with perhaps two or more steps of deciphering. Just as one
could, today, dope out a message using an original, a transcription
going to some "language" or other, and a formula for noting only
certain words on a page.

Could look at the German's use of a machine that enciphered and
deciphered using several substitutions according to plan, changed
regularly.

Play around with that and could get to the famous "one-off" system
that selects from only two copies. Maybe get to using substitutions,
algorithms, etc.. Using key words representing code would seem to be
innocuous.

Who knows if any of the papers Shakespeare passed around, between
University Wits, actors, printers, coteries, cabals, and intriguing
inner circles, had hidden messages? If the sonnets don't reflect his
personal life much, what do they communicate?
Arthur Neuendorffer
2020-11-19 17:41:41 UTC
Permalink
Donald Cameron wrote:

<<I find interesting the following bit from latest by Art.
-----------------------------------------------
(quote) To him selfe they sent immediately that which they call Scytala
...The Scytala is in this sort. When the Ephori doe send a Generall,
or an Admirall to the warres, they cause two litle round staues
to be made [etc.]... These two litle staues they call Scytales.
Ibid., This litle scrowle of parchment
also is called as the rowle of wodde, Scytala.
...........................................................
<<The *SCYTALE* is the oldest known military ciphering method.
In the year 404 B.C. only one of five messengers survived the
grueling march from Persia back to the Spartan general *LYSANDER*.
The messenger gave *LYSANDER* his belt and *LYSANDER* winded his
belt around the so-called *SCYTALE*. Thus he was informed that
the Persians planned an attack, he prepared for this attack
and was able to fend it successfully.>> - Simon Singh (unquote)
-----------------------------------------------
No doubt the ancients very well knew about secret messages, especially
ones that had to be deciphered. The "scytale" story seems to reveal a
way to communicate between front lines intelligence and generals in
the rear. Evidently could make a message atop a "belt" wound around a
scytale, which would make sense only when wound around another.

By Shakespeare's time, probably they doubled-down on that and had
ciphering with more than one "scytale," making sense-non-sense-sense
again, but with perhaps two or more steps of deciphering. Just as one
could, today, dope out a message using an original, a transcription
going to some "language" or other, and a formula for noting only
certain words on a page.>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
E.g.: 1) Boustrophedon text reading
. 2) Secret ARMADA message to
.... {DELIA}/*moon goddess ARTEMIS*/DIANA/Elizabeth I
..................
___ <= 5 =>
.
.. T H S S {A}
.. H S H E {I}
.. E I I V {L}
.. S N P A {E}
.. P A S H {D}
..........................................
THE SPANISH SHIPS HAVE SAILED / {DELIA}
------------------------------------------------------------------
https://shakespeareoxfordfellowship.org/secrets-dedication-shakespeares-sonnets/
...............................................
_Secrets of the Dedication to Shakespeare’s Sonnets_
. by John M. Rollett

Originally published in THE OXFORDIAN, Volume 2, 1999

<<But what I was really hoping to find was examples of Elizabethan ciphers. This took quite a long time, basically because there aren’t any. None have survived, although several people at the time did describe various useful techniques which might have been used, for all we know. (Strictly speaking, one should class acrostics as very simple ciphers. The Elizabethans were certainly fond of them, and quite a lot do survive, especially in poetry.) The only example of a cipher I was able to find was in a biography of John Dee, the Elizabethan savant and astrologer (he was instructed by Robert Dudley to choose an auspicious day for the Queen’s Coronation, and many people would agree that he did a good job). Here (left) is the example his biographer gave to illustrate a method described by John Dee. This reads, going down and up the columns,
.
. “The Spanish ships have sailed.” The message would be sent off,
reading across, as T H S S A H S H E I E I I V L S N P A E P A S H D.
.
To someone intercepting it, it would obviously proclaim itself as a coded message and to decode it, all one has to do is to count the number of letters––25––and write it out again in a 5 by 5 square. It is amusing to learn that Dee regarded this as “a childish cryptogram such as eny man of knowledge shud be able to resolve.”>>
..................
___ <= 5 =>
.
.. T H S S {A}
.. H S H E {I}
.. E I I V {L}
.. S N P A {E}
.. P A S H {D}
..........................................
THE SPANISH SHIPS HAVE SAILED / {DELIA}
-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delia

<<{DELIA} is a feminine given name, either taken from an epithet
of the Greek *moon goddess ARTEMIS* or else representing a
short form of A{DELIA}, Be{DELIA}, Cor{DELIA} or O{DELIA}.>>
............................................................
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portraiture_of_Elizabeth_I#The_cult_of_Elizabeth

<<An exaltation of queen Elizabeth I's virgin purity identified her with the {MOON goddess} *who holds dominion over the waters*. Sir Walter Raleigh had begun to use {DIANA} and later {CYNTHIA} as aliases for the queen in his poetry around 1580, and images of Elizabeth with jewels in the shape of crescent moons or the huntress's arrows begin to appear in portraiture around 1586 and multiply through the remainder of the reign. The Ditchley Portrait seems to have always been at the Oxfordshire home of Elizabeth's retired Champion, Sir [HENRY LEE] (1533–1611) of Ditchley, and likely was painted for (or commemorates) her two-day visit to Ditchley in 1592.>>
---------------------------------------------------------
Sonneteer Sir Thomas Wyatt uncle of [SIR HENRY LEE]
Sonneteer Henry Howard uncle of Edward [DE VERE]
..................................................
1971 Speare-Shakers:[SIR HENRY LEE] & Edward [DE VERE]
-------------------------------------------------------
_____ Sonnet 102 (Only Sonnet's *PUBLISH*)
.
. MY LOVE IS Strengthned though more weake in seeming
. I love not lesse, thogh lesse the show appeare,
. That love is marchandiz'd, whose ritch esteeming,
.
. The own[E]rs tongu[E] (DOTH} PUB[L]ISH {E}VER[Y] {WH}E{R}E) .
. Ou[R] lov{E} was [N]ew, and th[E]n but in t[H]e sp{RING},
..{WH}en I was wont to greet it with my laies,
. As Philomell in summers front doth singe,
. And stops his pipe in g[R]owth of r[I]per daie[S]:
..................................................
_______ <= 8 =>
.
____ T h (E) o w n. [E]
.. r s t (O) n g u. [E]
. (D O T {H} P U B. [L]
.. I S H {E} V E R. [Y]
. {W H}E {R} E)O u. [R]
.. l o v {E} w a s. [N]
.. e w,a. n. d t h. [E]
.. n b u. t. i n t. [H]
.. e s p {R I N G}{W H}
.
[HENRY LEE] -8 : Prob. in any Sonnet ~ 1 in 1765
------------------------------------------------------
<<Under this stone entombed lies a fair & worthy Dame
Daughter to Henry Vavasour, Anne Vavasour her name.
She living with [Sir HENRY LEE], for love long time did dwell
Death could not part them but here they rest within one cell.>>
----------------------------------------------------------------
Donald Cameron wrote:

<<Who knows if any of the papers Shakespeare passed around, between
University Wits, actors, printers, coteries, cabals, and intriguing
inner circles, had hidden messages? If the sonnets don't reflect
his personal life much, what do they communicate?>>
------------------------------------------------------------------
. Something {For}[SIDNEI] perhaps:
-------------------------------------------------------------
______________ Sonnet 47
.
. BEtwixt mine eye and heart a league is tooke,
. And each doth good turnes now vnto the other,
. When that mine eye is famisht {For} a looke,
. Or heart in loue with [S]ighes himselfe doth smother;
. W[I]th my loues picture then my eye [D]oth feast,
. And to the painted ba[N]quet bids my heart:
. An other tim[E] mine eye is my hearts guest,
. And [I]n his thoughts of loue doth share a part.
. So either by thy picture or my loue,
. Thy seife away,are present still with me,
. For thou nor farther then my thoughts canst moue,
. And I am still with them,and they with thee.
. Or if they sleepe, thy picture in my sight
. Awakes my heart,to hearts and eyes delight.
.......................................................
______________ <= *26* =>
.
. {F o r} a l o o k e,O r h e a r t i n l o u e w i t h
. [S] i g h e s h i m s e l f e d o t h s m o t h e r;W
. [I] t h m y l o u e s p i c t u r e t h e n m y e y e
. [D] o t h f e a s t,A n d t o t h e p a i n t e d b a
. [N] q u e t b i d s m y h e a r t:A n o t h e r t i m
. [E] m i n e e y e i s m y h e a r t s g u e s t,A n d
. [I] n h i s t h o u g h t s
.
{For}[SIDNEI] *26* [starting in the middle of the 3rd line]
...............................................
. Hebrew Gematria (יהוה‎ i.e., YHWH) = *26*
. Gematria (PHILIP SIDNEI) = 125
...............................................
______________ Sonnet 125
.
. WEr't ought to me I "bore the canopy",
. With my extern the outward honoring,
. Or layd great bases {For} eternity,
. Which proues more [S]hort then wast or ruining?
. Haue [I] not seene dwellers on forme an[D] fauor
. Lose all,and more by payi[N]g too much rent
. For compound sw[E]et;Forgoing simple sauor,
. Pitt[I]full thriuors in their gazing spent.
. Noe,let me be obsequious in thy heart,
. And take thou my oblacion,poore but free,
. Which is not mixt with seconds,knows no art,
. But mutuall render onely me for thee.
. Hence,thou subbornd Informer, a trew soule
. When most impeacht,stands least in thy controule.
.......................................................
______________ <= *26* =>
.
. {F o r} e t e r n i t y,W h i c h p r o u e s m o r e
. [S] h o r t t h e n w a s t o r r u i n i n g?H a u e
. [I] n o t s e e n e d w e l l e r s o n f o r m e a n
. [D] f a u o r L o s e a l l,a n d m o r e b y p a y i
. [N] g t o o m u c h r e n t F o r c o m p o u n d s w
. [E] e t;F o r g o i n g s i m p l e s a u o r,P i t t
. [I] f u l l t h r i u o r s i n t h e i r g a z i n g
,
{For}[SIDNEI] *26* [starting in the middle of the 3rd line]
..........................................................
Shortest ELS skip {For}[SIDNEI] or [SIDNEY] in KJV = 869
Shortest {For}[SIDNEI] or [SIDNEY] in Moby Dick = 2818
..........................................................
"Raw" {For}[SIDNEI] probability skip less than
or equal to *26* in these ~ 1 in 108 million.
...........................................................
The Encyclopædia Britannica ~ 190 million letters
----------------------------------------------------------
______________ Sonnet 108
.
But makes antiquitie {For} aye *HIS PAGE*,
Finding the fir[S]t conceit of love there bred,
Wh[E]re time and outward forme woul[D] shew it dead.
................................................
______________ <= 26 =>
.
. {F o r} a y e*H I S P A G E*F i n d i n g t h e f i r
. [S]t c o n c e i t o f l o v e t h e r e b r e d,W h
. [E]r e t i m e a n d o u t w a r d f o r m e w o u l
. [D]s h e w i t d e a d.
.
{For}[S.E.D.] *26* : Prob. in any *NAME* Sonnet ~ 1 in 175
[starting in the middle of the 3rd line from bottom]
----------------------------------------------------------
Thirteen *NAME* Sonnets:
....................................................
36, 71, 72, *76* , 80, 81, 89, 95, 108, 111, 127, 151
--------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
John W Kennedy
2020-11-19 21:05:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donald Cameron
I find interesting the following bit from latest by Art.
(quote)
To him selfe they sent immediately that which they call Scytala...
The Scytala is in this sort. When the Ephori doe send a Generall,
or an Admirall to the warres, they cause two litle round staues
to be made [etc.]... These two litle staues they call Scytales.
Ibid., This litle scrowle of parchment
also is called as the rowle of wodde, Scytala.
...........................................................
<<The *SCYTALE* is the oldest known military ciphering method.
In the year 404 B.C. only one of five messengers survived the
grueling march from Persia back to the Spartan general *LYSANDER*.
The messenger gave *LYSANDER* his belt and *LYSANDER* winded his
belt around the so-called *SCYTALE*. Thus he was informed that
the Persians planned an attack, he prepared for this attack
and was able to fend it successfully.>> - Simon Singh
(unquote)
No doubt the ancients very well knew about secret messages, especially
ones that had to be deciphered. The "scytale" story seems to reveal a
way to communicate between front lines intelligence and generals in
the rear. Evidently could make a message atop a "belt" wound around a
scytale, which would make sense only when wound around another.
By Shakespeare's time, probably they doubled-down on that and had
ciphering with more than one "scytale," making sense-non-sense-sense
again, but with perhaps two or more steps of deciphering. Just as one
could, today, dope out a message using an original, a transcription
going to some "language" or other, and a formula for noting only
certain words on a page.
Could look at the German's use of a machine that enciphered and
deciphered using several substitutions according to plan, changed
regularly.
Play around with that and could get to the famous "one-off" system
that selects from only two copies. Maybe get to using substitutions,
algorithms, etc.. Using key words representing code would seem to be
innocuous.
Who knows if any of the papers Shakespeare passed around, between
University Wits, actors, printers, coteries, cabals, and intriguing
inner circles, had hidden messages? If the sonnets don't reflect his
personal life much, what do they communicate?
By Shakespeare’s time, the scytale was an antique curiosity, and the
so-called Vigenère cypher and the Cardan grille were more nearly the
state of the art.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
Dim Witte
2020-11-19 23:14:03 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 16:05:40 -0500, John W Kennedy
Post by Donald Cameron
I find interesting the following bit from latest by Art.
(quote)
To him selfe they sent immediately that which they call Scytala...
The Scytala is in this sort. When the Ephori doe send a Generall,
or an Admirall to the warres, they cause two litle round staues
to be made [etc.]... These two litle staues they call Scytales.
Ibid., This litle scrowle of parchment
also is called as the rowle of wodde, Scytala.
...........................................................
<<The *SCYTALE* is the oldest known military ciphering method.
In the year 404 B.C. only one of five messengers survived the
grueling march from Persia back to the Spartan general *LYSANDER*.
The messenger gave *LYSANDER* his belt and *LYSANDER* winded his
belt around the so-called *SCYTALE*. Thus he was informed that
the Persians planned an attack, he prepared for this attack
and was able to fend it successfully.>> - Simon Singh
(unquote)
No doubt the ancients very well knew about secret messages, especially
ones that had to be deciphered. The "scytale" story seems to reveal a
way to communicate between front lines intelligence and generals in
the rear. Evidently could make a message atop a "belt" wound around a
scytale, which would make sense only when wound around another.
By Shakespeare's time, probably they doubled-down on that and had
ciphering with more than one "scytale," making sense-non-sense-sense
again, but with perhaps two or more steps of deciphering. Just as one
could, today, dope out a message using an original, a transcription
going to some "language" or other, and a formula for noting only
certain words on a page.
Could look at the German's use of a machine that enciphered and
deciphered using several substitutions according to plan, changed
regularly.
Play around with that and could get to the famous "one-off" system
that selects from only two copies. Maybe get to using substitutions,
algorithms, etc.. Using key words representing code would seem to be
innocuous.
Who knows if any of the papers Shakespeare passed around, between
University Wits, actors, printers, coteries, cabals, and intriguing
inner circles, had hidden messages? If the sonnets don't reflect his
personal life much, what do they communicate?
By Shakespeare’s time, the scytale was an antique curiosity, and the
so-called Vigenère cypher and the Cardan grille were more nearly the
state of the art.
Not sure, but assume that Shakespeare's time did practice secret
messages by the simple means of writing in lemon juice, which when
heated turned brown.
John W Kennedy
2020-11-20 17:01:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dim Witte
On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 16:05:40 -0500, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Donald Cameron
I find interesting the following bit from latest by Art.
(quote)
To him selfe they sent immediately that which they call Scytala...
The Scytala is in this sort. When the Ephori doe send a Generall,
or an Admirall to the warres, they cause two litle round staues
to be made [etc.]... These two litle staues they call Scytales.
Ibid., This litle scrowle of parchment
also is called as the rowle of wodde, Scytala.
...........................................................
<<The *SCYTALE* is the oldest known military ciphering method.
In the year 404 B.C. only one of five messengers survived the
grueling march from Persia back to the Spartan general *LYSANDER*.
The messenger gave *LYSANDER* his belt and *LYSANDER* winded his
belt around the so-called *SCYTALE*. Thus he was informed that
the Persians planned an attack, he prepared for this attack
and was able to fend it successfully.>> - Simon Singh
(unquote)
No doubt the ancients very well knew about secret messages, especially
ones that had to be deciphered. The "scytale" story seems to reveal a
way to communicate between front lines intelligence and generals in
the rear. Evidently could make a message atop a "belt" wound around a
scytale, which would make sense only when wound around another.
By Shakespeare's time, probably they doubled-down on that and had
ciphering with more than one "scytale," making sense-non-sense-sense
again, but with perhaps two or more steps of deciphering. Just as one
could, today, dope out a message using an original, a transcription
going to some "language" or other, and a formula for noting only
certain words on a page.
Could look at the German's use of a machine that enciphered and
deciphered using several substitutions according to plan, changed
regularly.
Play around with that and could get to the famous "one-off" system
that selects from only two copies. Maybe get to using substitutions,
algorithms, etc.. Using key words representing code would seem to be
innocuous.
Who knows if any of the papers Shakespeare passed around, between
University Wits, actors, printers, coteries, cabals, and intriguing
inner circles, had hidden messages? If the sonnets don't reflect his
personal life much, what do they communicate?
By Shakespeare’s time, the scytale was an antique curiosity, and the
so-called Vigenère cypher and the Cardan grille were more nearly the
state of the art.
Not sure, but assume that Shakespeare's time did practice secret
messages by the simple means of writing in lemon juice, which when
heated turned brown.
The method was known, along with a great many other formulae. But any
literate person was aware of them—Heck, any child is aware of them
today. Serious intelligence work was done with real ciphers. Walsingham
generally used a "nomenclator”—a simple substitution cipher, but with
arbitrary code symbols for common words.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
marc hanson
2020-11-23 01:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Dim Witte
On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 16:05:40 -0500, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Donald Cameron
I find interesting the following bit from latest by Art.
(quote)
To him selfe they sent immediately that which they call Scytala...
The Scytala is in this sort. When the Ephori doe send a Generall,
or an Admirall to the warres, they cause two litle round staues
to be made [etc.]... These two litle staues they call Scytales.
Ibid., This litle scrowle of parchment
also is called as the rowle of wodde, Scytala.
...........................................................
<<The *SCYTALE* is the oldest known military ciphering method.
In the year 404 B.C. only one of five messengers survived the
grueling march from Persia back to the Spartan general *LYSANDER*.
The messenger gave *LYSANDER* his belt and *LYSANDER* winded his
belt around the so-called *SCYTALE*. Thus he was informed that
the Persians planned an attack, he prepared for this attack
and was able to fend it successfully.>> - Simon Singh
(unquote)
No doubt the ancients very well knew about secret messages, especially
ones that had to be deciphered. The "scytale" story seems to reveal a
way to communicate between front lines intelligence and generals in
the rear. Evidently could make a message atop a "belt" wound around a
scytale, which would make sense only when wound around another.
By Shakespeare's time, probably they doubled-down on that and had
ciphering with more than one "scytale," making sense-non-sense-sense
again, but with perhaps two or more steps of deciphering. Just as one
could, today, dope out a message using an original, a transcription
going to some "language" or other, and a formula for noting only
certain words on a page.
Could look at the German's use of a machine that enciphered and
deciphered using several substitutions according to plan, changed
regularly.
Play around with that and could get to the famous "one-off" system
that selects from only two copies. Maybe get to using substitutions,
algorithms, etc.. Using key words representing code would seem to be
innocuous.
Who knows if any of the papers Shakespeare passed around, between
University Wits, actors, printers, coteries, cabals, and intriguing
inner circles, had hidden messages? If the sonnets don't reflect his
personal life much, what do they communicate?
By Shakespeare’s time, the scytale was an antique curiosity, and the
so-called Vigenère cypher and the Cardan grille were more nearly the
state of the art.
Not sure, but assume that Shakespeare's time did practice secret
messages by the simple means of writing in lemon juice, which when
heated turned brown.
The method was known, along with a great many other formulae. But any
literate person was aware of them—Heck, any child is aware of them
today. Serious intelligence work was done with real ciphers. Walsingham
generally used a "nomenclator”—a simple substitution cipher, but with
arbitrary code symbols for common words.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude".
Dim Witte
2020-11-23 02:28:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 17:02:49 -0800 (PST), marc hanson
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Dim Witte
On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 16:05:40 -0500, John W Kennedy
Post by Donald Cameron
I find interesting the following bit from latest by Art.
(quote)
To him selfe they sent immediately that which they call Scytala...
The Scytala is in this sort. When the Ephori doe send a Generall,
or an Admirall to the warres, they cause two litle round staues
to be made [etc.]... These two litle staues they call Scytales.
Ibid., This litle scrowle of parchment
also is called as the rowle of wodde, Scytala.
...........................................................
<<The *SCYTALE* is the oldest known military ciphering method.
In the year 404 B.C. only one of five messengers survived the
grueling march from Persia back to the Spartan general *LYSANDER*.
The messenger gave *LYSANDER* his belt and *LYSANDER* winded his
belt around the so-called *SCYTALE*. Thus he was informed that
the Persians planned an attack, he prepared for this attack
and was able to fend it successfully.>> - Simon Singh
(unquote)
No doubt the ancients very well knew about secret messages, especially
ones that had to be deciphered. The "scytale" story seems to reveal a
way to communicate between front lines intelligence and generals in
the rear. Evidently could make a message atop a "belt" wound around a
scytale, which would make sense only when wound around another.
By Shakespeare's time, probably they doubled-down on that and had
ciphering with more than one "scytale," making sense-non-sense-sense
again, but with perhaps two or more steps of deciphering. Just as one
could, today, dope out a message using an original, a transcription
going to some "language" or other, and a formula for noting only
certain words on a page.
Could look at the German's use of a machine that enciphered and
deciphered using several substitutions according to plan, changed
regularly.
Play around with that and could get to the famous "one-off" system
that selects from only two copies. Maybe get to using substitutions,
algorithms, etc.. Using key words representing code would seem to be
innocuous.
Who knows if any of the papers Shakespeare passed around, between
University Wits, actors, printers, coteries, cabals, and intriguing
inner circles, had hidden messages? If the sonnets don't reflect his
personal life much, what do they communicate?
By Shakespeare’s time, the scytale was an antique curiosity, and the
so-called Vigenère cypher and the Cardan grille were more nearly the
state of the art.
Not sure, but assume that Shakespeare's time did practice secret
messages by the simple means of writing in lemon juice, which when
heated turned brown.
The method was known, along with a great many other formulae. But any
literate person was aware of them—Heck, any child is aware of them
today. Serious intelligence work was done with real ciphers. Walsingham
generally used a "nomenclator”—a simple substitution cipher, but with
arbitrary code symbols for common words.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude".
Wondering, given the topic, whether marc hanson is doing invisible
writing here or putting us on in another way.

I suppose one could use a common computer program to write in "marc
hanson <***@gmail.com>", simply signaling in header or edited post
copied the next link in where to go?
marc hanson
2020-12-04 11:11:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dim Witte
On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 17:02:49 -0800 (PST), marc hanson
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Dim Witte
On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 16:05:40 -0500, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Donald Cameron
I find interesting the following bit from latest by Art.
(quote)
To him selfe they sent immediately that which they call Scytala...
The Scytala is in this sort. When the Ephori doe send a Generall,
or an Admirall to the warres, they cause two litle round staues
to be made [etc.]... These two litle staues they call Scytales.
Ibid., This litle scrowle of parchment
also is called as the rowle of wodde, Scytala.
...........................................................
<<The *SCYTALE* is the oldest known military ciphering method.
In the year 404 B.C. only one of five messengers survived the
grueling march from Persia back to the Spartan general *LYSANDER*.
The messenger gave *LYSANDER* his belt and *LYSANDER* winded his
belt around the so-called *SCYTALE*. Thus he was informed that
the Persians planned an attack, he prepared for this attack
and was able to fend it successfully.>> - Simon Singh
(unquote)
No doubt the ancients very well knew about secret messages, especially
ones that had to be deciphered. The "scytale" story seems to reveal a
way to communicate between front lines intelligence and generals in
the rear. Evidently could make a message atop a "belt" wound around a
scytale, which would make sense only when wound around another.
By Shakespeare's time, probably they doubled-down on that and had
ciphering with more than one "scytale," making sense-non-sense-sense
again, but with perhaps two or more steps of deciphering. Just as one
could, today, dope out a message using an original, a transcription
going to some "language" or other, and a formula for noting only
certain words on a page.
Could look at the German's use of a machine that enciphered and
deciphered using several substitutions according to plan, changed
regularly.
Play around with that and could get to the famous "one-off" system
that selects from only two copies. Maybe get to using substitutions,
algorithms, etc.. Using key words representing code would seem to be
innocuous.
Who knows if any of the papers Shakespeare passed around, between
University Wits, actors, printers, coteries, cabals, and intriguing
inner circles, had hidden messages? If the sonnets don't reflect his
personal life much, what do they communicate?
By Shakespeare’s time, the scytale was an antique curiosity, and the
so-called Vigenère cypher and the Cardan grille were more nearly the
state of the art.
Not sure, but assume that Shakespeare's time did practice secret
messages by the simple means of writing in lemon juice, which when
heated turned brown.
The method was known, along with a great many other formulae. But any
literate person was aware of them—Heck, any child is aware of them
today. Serious intelligence work was done with real ciphers. Walsingham
generally used a "nomenclator”—a simple substitution cipher, but with
arbitrary code symbols for common words.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude".
Wondering, given the topic, whether marc hanson is doing invisible
writing here or putting us on in another way.
I suppose one could use a common computer program to write in "marc
copied the next link in where to go?.
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