Discussion:
Was Claudius' love for Gertrude genuine?
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F.
2004-01-03 04:21:08 UTC
Permalink
I'm trying to figure out if Claudius genuinly loved Gertrude or merely
took her as queen to satisfy his ambition (amongst other things).
I'd argue he did love her, as he says that he is still affected by his
desire for the crown, ambition and queen.
Many other opinions say that he is merely using, seducing her.
What is your take?
Deborah G. Buckner
2004-01-03 04:34:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by F.
I'm trying to figure out if Claudius genuinly loved Gertrude or merely
took her as queen to satisfy his ambition (amongst other things).
I'd argue he did love her, as he says that he is still affected by his
desire for the crown, ambition and queen.
Many other opinions say that he is merely using, seducing her.
What is your take?
I think Claudius thought he loved Gertrude. He might even have convinced
himself that he wanted her as much as he wanted the crown, adding to his
motivation to murder the king, his brother.

But it was also very convenient for Claudius to have Gertrude as his queen.
The major impediment to Claudius' reign is Hamlet's claim to the throne.
Could there be a better way than marrying Gertrude to keep her from
supporting her son's rights?

Genuine love would have rushed across the room to knock the cup from
Gertrude's hand before she had a chance to drink. I think we see whatever
affection Claudius had for Gertrude die at Ophelia's graveside when he says
(and, in my opinion, Sir Derek Jacobi did this most effectively in Branagh's
film) "Gertrude, set some watch upon your son."

Deb




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Peter Farey
2004-01-03 08:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by F.
I'm trying to figure out if Claudius genuinly loved Gertrude or merely
took her as queen to satisfy his ambition (amongst other things).
I'd argue he did love her, as he says that he is still affected by his
desire for the crown, ambition and queen.
Many other opinions say that he is merely using, seducing her.
What is your take?
He tells Laertes:

...and for myself -
My virtue or my plague, be it either which -
She's so conjunctive to my life and soul
That, as the star moves not but in his sphere,
I could not but by her.
(4.7.12-16)

and, in the context, it's difficult to see any reason
for him to be lying.


Peter F.
***@rey.prestel.co.uk
http://www2.prestel.co.uk/rey/index.htm
A Tsar Is Born
2004-01-03 19:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by F.
I'm trying to figure out if Claudius genuinly loved Gertrude or merely
took her as queen to satisfy his ambition (amongst other things).
I'd argue he did love her, as he says that he is still affected by his
desire for the crown, ambition and queen.
Many other opinions say that he is merely using, seducing her.
What is your take?
Using her why? What does he get out of it if he's not in love with her?

It's hard to see why he married her otherwise, and in a manner so likely to
startle social proprieties. He had very little to gain. Unless (which is
true in the ancient source material, but Shakespeare probably did not know
this) Gertrude is in fact the sovereign Queen, and the new king MUST marry
her to get the throne.

Exactly how deep his passion goes, as it becomes increasingly clear that
Hamlet's survival is dangerous to his own, is hard to say. Not quite far
enough to sacrifice himself for her. But her existence, which is part of the
impediment to Hamlet's taking instant revenge on Claudius is also an
impediment to Claudius being able openly to act against Hamlet. (This makes
for an interesting chess problem, eh?) Clearly he is not ready to ignore her
strong feelings, and since this is not, in the play, a matriarchal monarchy,
his love of her must be the cause of that.

I have always assumed that Hamlet's comparison of his father and his uncle
in the Queen's bedroom scene is special pleading. In fact the two brothers
are not so very different, and Gertrude, a practical and perspicuous woman
(as all her speeches make clear), clearly can't tell them apart. (In the
source myth, they were twins. In the related tale of King Arthur's birth,
one magically assumed the other's form in order to seduce the other's wife.)

Jean Coeur de Lapin
l***@gmail.com
2020-08-27 11:04:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by F.
I'm trying to figure out if Claudius genuinly loved Gertrude or merely
took her as queen to satisfy his ambition (amongst other things).
I'd argue he did love her, as he says that he is still affected by his
desire for the crown, ambition and queen.
Many other opinions say that he is merely using, seducing her.
What is your take?
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/comp.mail.sendmail/CNwgya0ACLE
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/comp.mail.sendmail/I3a8gJZGVP0
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.portuguese/2DbnKov3tig
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.portuguese/SCa5aICuCDM
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/news.software.readers/qMxX5fdhN9E
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/news.software.readers/_qDDk3sOmdQ
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/news.software.readers/dwxzZxIDKHY
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/news.software.readers/NpeZ_PUYxZs
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/alt.religion.christian.biblestudy/4tBB0zslLRY
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/alt.religion.christian.biblestudy/jDJHUgTpmgU
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/alt.religion.christian.biblestudy/_iWP5sskN9M
f***@gmail.com
2020-10-13 14:37:28 UTC
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Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by F.
I'm trying to figure out if Claudius genuinly loved Gertrude or merely
took her as queen to satisfy his ambition (amongst other things).
I'd argue he did love her, as he says that he is still affected by his
desire for the crown, ambition and queen.
Many other opinions say that he is merely using, seducing her.
What is your take?
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/comp.mail.sendmail/CNwgya0ACLE
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/comp.mail.sendmail/I3a8gJZGVP0
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.portuguese/2DbnKov3tig
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.portuguese/SCa5aICuCDM
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/news.software.readers/qMxX5fdhN9E
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/news.software.readers/_qDDk3sOmdQ
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/news.software.readers/dwxzZxIDKHY
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/news.software.readers/NpeZ_PUYxZs
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/alt.religion.christian.biblestudy/4tBB0zslLRY
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/alt.religion.christian.biblestudy/jDJHUgTpmgU
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/alt.religion.christian.biblestudy/_iWP5sskN9M.
Dim Witte
2020-10-13 21:12:01 UTC
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Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by F.
I'm trying to figure out if Claudius genuinly loved Gertrude or merely
took her as queen to satisfy his ambition (amongst other things).
I'd argue he did love her, as he says that he is still affected by his
desire for the crown, ambition and queen.
Many other opinions say that he is merely using, seducing her.
What is your take?
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/comp.mail.sendmail/CNwgya0ACLE
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/comp.mail.sendmail/I3a8gJZGVP0
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.portuguese/2DbnKov3tig
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.portuguese/SCa5aICuCDM
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/news.software.readers/qMxX5fdhN9E
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/news.software.readers/_qDDk3sOmdQ
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/news.software.readers/dwxzZxIDKHY
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/news.software.readers/NpeZ_PUYxZs
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/alt.religion.christian.biblestudy/4tBB0zslLRY
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/alt.religion.christian.biblestudy/jDJHUgTpmgU
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/alt.religion.christian.biblestudy/_iWP5sskN9M.
Is the choice only romantic love or Machiavellian moves by a Prince?
He seems genuinely motivated in the final scene, when Gertrude drinks
the poison, but by what?

Consideration of what Shakespeare intends seems to include something
biblical about kings marrying brother's wives, perhaps assuming some
hanky-panky before; and, I think, some feelings about the
"bastardizing" of Hamlet. How many Elizabethan bastard babies
associated with the nobility and the court were the result of such
dalliances?

Of course, there's no proof that Stratman was one of the court
bastards, not even after counting all the references and plot
complications involving bastards in the plays.
f***@gmail.com
2020-10-22 16:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dim Witte
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by F.
I'm trying to figure out if Claudius genuinly loved Gertrude or merely
took her as queen to satisfy his ambition (amongst other things).
I'd argue he did love her, as he says that he is still affected by his
desire for the crown, ambition and queen.
Many other opinions say that he is merely using, seducing her.
What is your take?
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/comp.mail.sendmail/CNwgya0ACLE
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/comp.mail.sendmail/I3a8gJZGVP0
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.portuguese/2DbnKov3tig
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.culture.portuguese/SCa5aICuCDM
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/news.software.readers/qMxX5fdhN9E
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/news.software.readers/_qDDk3sOmdQ
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/news.software.readers/dwxzZxIDKHY
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/news.software.readers/NpeZ_PUYxZs
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/alt.religion.christian.biblestudy/4tBB0zslLRY
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/alt.religion.christian.biblestudy/jDJHUgTpmgU
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/alt.religion.christian.biblestudy/_iWP5sskN9M.
Is the choice only romantic love or Machiavellian moves by a Prince?
He seems genuinely motivated in the final scene, when Gertrude drinks
the poison, but by what?
Consideration of what Shakespeare intends seems to include something
biblical about kings marrying brother's wives, perhaps assuming some
hanky-panky before; and, I think, some feelings about the
"bastardizing" of Hamlet. How many Elizabethan bastard babies
associated with the nobility and the court were the result of such
dalliances?
Of course, there's no proof that Stratman was one of the court
bastards, not even after counting all the references and plot
complications involving bastards in the plays..
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