Discussion:
Harold Bloom on Mel Gibson's & Ethan Hawke's "Hamlet"
(too old to reply)
Henry Hanna
2004-05-03 14:53:22 UTC
Permalink
Hi. HH here. Heartfelt thanks for the comments.

I have another Shak-related question.

Near the beginning of
"Hamlet: Poem Unlimited", Harold Bloom says something
like
"If you go see a responsibly produced production of
Hamlet, ..."

I like Mel Gibson's Hamlet and
I *LOVE* Ethan Hawke's Hamlet.

My question is, does Bloom think that these
are "responsibly produced productions" ?
and should I even care?
http://www.alfred.north.whitehead.com/ANW/WitWisdom/witwis9.htm
To this day I cannot read King Lear, having had the
advantage of studying it accurately [at] school.
(Atlantic, Vol. 138, p. 197)
______________________________________________
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Fashionable Nonsense: Postmodern Intellectuals'
Abuse
of Science
By ALAN SOKAL and JEAN BRICMONT
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Francis A. Miniter
2004-05-03 16:31:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi Henry,

In my humble, but strongly felt, opinion, Harold Bloom represents a very
conservative attitude toward literature. I take his musings with salt.


The strength of Shakespeare lies in the ability of his dramas to
transcend time and changes in culture. Performances of his works do not
have to adhere to 16th century costumes and mannerisms to retain
vitality. The spate of Shakespeare movies setting the stories in 19th
and 20th century situations show this very well. One of my favorite
productions was the Richard Burton one done on stage in NYC in the
mid-60s. One of the performances was filmed (in black and white) and
made the rounds as a successful movie. The Burton production was done
in modern dress and a minimalist set and minimalist lighting. It was
very effective, more so, in my mind, than the elaborate Lawrence Olivier
production.


On a similar note, I remember going to see Henry V at the American
Shakespeare Festival (Stratford, Connecticut) about 1966. The Viet Nam
War was raging and the effect of the performance, despite the somewhat
exaggerated visual effects, was astounding. Not only is Henry's lead
noble (general) named Westmoreland, there is that incredible scene where
Henry walks through his camp incognito and engages in a debate about the
relationship of the individual to the state. It was as if Shakespeare
had Viet Nam in mind.


Francis A. Miniter
Post by Henry Hanna
Hi. HH here. Heartfelt thanks for the comments.
I have another Shak-related question.
Near the beginning of
"Hamlet: Poem Unlimited", Harold Bloom says something
like
"If you go see a responsibly produced production of
Hamlet, ..."
I like Mel Gibson's Hamlet and
I *LOVE* Ethan Hawke's Hamlet.
My question is, does Bloom think that these
are "responsibly produced productions" ?
and should I even care?
http://www.alfred.north.whitehead.com/ANW/WitWisdom/witwis9.htm
To this day I cannot read King Lear, having had the
advantage of studying it accurately [at] school.
(Atlantic, Vol. 138, p. 197)
______________________________________________
http://human-nature.com/reason/books/sokal-bricmont.html
Fashionable Nonsense: Postmodern Intellectuals'
Abuse
of Science
By ALAN SOKAL and JEAN BRICMONT
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author%3Ahenry%20author%3Ahanna&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab=wg
<<<
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
Tim Kynerd
2004-05-03 18:11:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henry Hanna
Hi. HH here. Heartfelt thanks for the comments.
I have another Shak-related question.
Near the beginning of
"Hamlet: Poem Unlimited", Harold Bloom says something
like
"If you go see a responsibly produced production of
Hamlet, ..."
I like Mel Gibson's Hamlet and
I *LOVE* Ethan Hawke's Hamlet.
My question is, does Bloom think that these
are "responsibly produced productions" ?
and should I even care?
What the HECK is this doing in sci.lang.translation when it's not
translation-related at all?

Followups set to h.l.a.s in the hope that this is on-topic there.
--
Tim Kynerd Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden ***@spamcop.net
Sunrise in Stockholm today: 4:49
Sunset in Stockholm today: 20:38
My rail transit photos at http://www.kynerd.nu
biancas842001
2004-05-04 00:05:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henry Hanna
Hi. HH here. Heartfelt thanks for the comments.
I have another Shak-related question.
Near the beginning of
"Hamlet: Poem Unlimited", Harold Bloom says something
like
"If you go see a responsibly produced production of
Hamlet, ..."
I like Mel Gibson's Hamlet and
I *LOVE* Ethan Hawke's Hamlet.
My question is, does Bloom think that these
are "responsibly produced productions" ?
and should I even care?
I also liked the Ethan Hawke "Hamlet." When I saw Gibson's "Hamlet"
in the theater, I can remember commenting that it was neat to see
"Hamlet" performed (I hadn't, really, before then), but that I missed
some of the "famous" speeches I had been looking forward to hearing
performed.

Bloom seems to be very conservative in his tastes, and he's said that
the Shakespeare plays are for reading, not for theater. I think I've
read something where he disapproves of actors and directors putting
their own egos above Shakespeare. I would assume that he'd disapprove
of the Hawke version, because the modern setting would interfere with
the proper message of the literature.

As for whether you should care, I think you ought to. Harold Bloom
has a very good reputation, but also keep in mind that he's kind of a
professional old fogey. In a few areas, he seems happy enough with
"the way things have always been," and for me, his opinion is not so
particularly interesting in those areas (unless you're interested in
the question, "what do conservatives think?").

This seems to be the first thread that's actually been on Shakespeare
since I signed up here! What do you guys usually discuss?

----
Bianca S.
John W. Kennedy
2004-05-04 14:12:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by biancas842001
Bloom seems to be very conservative in his tastes, and he's said that
the Shakespeare plays are for reading, not for theater. I think I've
read something where he disapproves of actors and directors putting
their own egos above Shakespeare.
But these are two entirely different issues.

I stress this matter, because the public mind is curiously
confused about it. The playwright is frequently
asked: "Doesn't it distress you to hear clumsy actors
spoiling your beautiful lines?" If the actors really are
clumsy and _do_ spoil the lines, then distress is a mild
term; but this is not what the questioner means. What
he actually means is: "Don't you resent the intrusion of
earthly and commonplace actors-as-such upon your
spiritual fancies?" To ask the question is to insinuate
that the playwright has mistaken his calling, since anybody
who feels like that has no business on the working
side of the stage-door. Such playwrights exist, but to be
supposed one of them is no compliment.
-- Dorothy L. Sayers: The Mind of the Maker
Post by biancas842001
I would assume that he'd disapprove
of the Hawke version, because the modern setting would interfere with
the proper message of the literature.
Why not just disapprove of "modern" settings because they are dissonant,
or condescending, or both? (n.b., I have not seen the Ethan Hawke
"Hamlet", and therefore I am not stating anything one way or another
about whether it does or does not suffer from these faults.)
--
John W. Kennedy
"You can, if you wish, class all science-fiction together; but it is
about as perceptive as classing the works of Ballantyne, Conrad and W.
W. Jacobs together as the 'sea-story' and then criticizing _that_."
-- C. S. Lewis. "An Experiment in Criticism"
Tom Reedy
2004-05-04 15:36:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W. Kennedy
Post by biancas842001
Bloom seems to be very conservative in his tastes, and he's said that
the Shakespeare plays are for reading, not for theater. I think I've
read something where he disapproves of actors and directors putting
their own egos above Shakespeare.
But these are two entirely different issues.
I stress this matter, because the public mind is curiously
confused about it. The playwright is frequently
asked: "Doesn't it distress you to hear clumsy actors
spoiling your beautiful lines?" If the actors really are
clumsy and _do_ spoil the lines, then distress is a mild
term; but this is not what the questioner means. What
he actually means is: "Don't you resent the intrusion of
earthly and commonplace actors-as-such upon your
spiritual fancies?" To ask the question is to insinuate
that the playwright has mistaken his calling, since anybody
who feels like that has no business on the working
side of the stage-door. Such playwrights exist, but to be
supposed one of them is no compliment.
-- Dorothy L. Sayers: The Mind of the Maker
Post by biancas842001
I would assume that he'd disapprove
of the Hawke version, because the modern setting would interfere with
the proper message of the literature.
Why not just disapprove of "modern" settings because they are dissonant,
or condescending, or both? (n.b., I have not seen the Ethan Hawke
"Hamlet", and therefore I am not stating anything one way or another
about whether it does or does not suffer from these faults.)
You should rent it. I enjoyed it much more than the Richard Burton filmed
dress rehearsal, which I thought delineated every symptom of his decline as
an actor. (Of course, I've also been accused of having a tin ear; I insist
on enjoying poetry even though I apparently read it in the wrong meter with
the wrong pronunciation; and I play guitar for at least an hour a day
despite having no musical talent at all, so my opinion may be suspect.)

Of course, the BBC production with Derek Jacobi is still the best filmed
production, IMSO.

TR
Post by John W. Kennedy
--
John W. Kennedy
"You can, if you wish, class all science-fiction together; but it is
about as perceptive as classing the works of Ballantyne, Conrad and W.
W. Jacobs together as the 'sea-story' and then criticizing _that_."
-- C. S. Lewis. "An Experiment in Criticism"
Gary Kosinsky
2004-05-04 18:14:15 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 04 May 2004 15:36:54 GMT, "Tom Reedy"
<***@earthlink.net> wrote:
SNIP
Post by Tom Reedy
Of course, the BBC production with Derek Jacobi is still the best filmed
production, IMSO.
I found it static and boring, as I recall.

As it happens, though, I'm currently listening to
the BBC Radio production of "Hamlet" performed by the
Renaissance Theatre Company with Kenneth Branagh as Hamlet
and Derek Jacobi as Claudius. Really first rate. And which
reinforces my belief that the best way (for me, anyways) to
enjoy Shakespeare is to listen to an audio production while
reading along with it.


- Gary Kosinsky
John W. Kennedy
2004-05-04 20:48:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary Kosinsky
On Tue, 04 May 2004 15:36:54 GMT, "Tom Reedy"
SNIP
Post by Tom Reedy
Of course, the BBC production with Derek Jacobi is still the best filmed
production, IMSO.
I found it static and boring, as I recall.
I found it positively tendentious in its editing, but I hear that what I
saw was a cut "improved" for the US market.
--
John W. Kennedy
"Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne
of the kingdom of idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts"
-- J. Michael Straczynski. "Babylon 5", "Ceremonies of Light and Dark"
biancas842001
2004-05-04 23:06:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W. Kennedy
Post by biancas842001
Bloom seems to be very conservative in his tastes, and he's said that
the Shakespeare plays are for reading, not for theater. I think I've
read something where he disapproves of actors and directors putting
their own egos above Shakespeare.
But these are two entirely different issues.
I stress this matter, because the public mind is curiously
confused about it. The playwright is frequently
asked: "Doesn't it distress you to hear clumsy actors
spoiling your beautiful lines?" If the actors really are
clumsy and _do_ spoil the lines, then distress is a mild
term; but this is not what the questioner means. What
he actually means is: "Don't you resent the intrusion of
earthly and commonplace actors-as-such upon your
spiritual fancies?" To ask the question is to insinuate
that the playwright has mistaken his calling, since anybody
who feels like that has no business on the working
side of the stage-door. Such playwrights exist, but to be
supposed one of them is no compliment.
-- Dorothy L. Sayers: The Mind of the Maker
Obviously, Bloom isn't representing the point of view of the living
playwright, which Sayers expresses above. You might say he's against
interpreting the plays in any way that changes the meaning away from
the meaning they have in the tradition of English literature. He's
not thrilled about "new-fangled" (post-circa-1950?) schools of
criticism, either, and would probably say the same about "tenured
radicals" who exercise their egos in tearing down the great poets.
Post by John W. Kennedy
Post by biancas842001
I would assume that he'd disapprove
of the Hawke version, because the modern setting would interfere with
the proper message of the literature.
Why not just disapprove of "modern" settings because they are dissonant,
or condescending, or both? (n.b., I have not seen the Ethan Hawke
"Hamlet", and therefore I am not stating anything one way or another
about whether it does or does not suffer from these faults.)
I don't know what the specifics are of Harold Bloom's taste in
Shakespeare productions, exactly. He is one of those writers/teachers
who are famous for applying broadly general terms of praise or blame,
without explaining precisely how or why those terms apply. I assume,
more or less, that a primary criterion for him is whether the
production will provide an audience (less informed than himself) with
the knowledge -- as well as feelings, enjoyment, etc. -- they ought to
have about "Hamlet," or whether it will give them the wrong idea. I
don't recall ever seeing him express an interest in cinematic art, per
se, and I would guess he counts film an "easy pleasure," as opposed to
the "difficult pleasures" that he prefers.

----
Bianca S.
bookburn
2004-05-05 00:18:32 UTC
Permalink
"biancas842001" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
| John W. Kennedy wrote:
| > biancas842001 wrote:
| > > Bloom seems to be very conservative in his tastes, and he's said
that
| > > the Shakespeare plays are for reading, not for theater. I think
I've
| > > read something where he disapproves of actors and directors
putting
| > > their own egos above Shakespeare.
| >
| > But these are two entirely different issues.
| >
| > I stress this matter, because the public mind is curiously
| > confused about it. The playwright is frequently
| > asked: "Doesn't it distress you to hear clumsy actors
| > spoiling your beautiful lines?" If the actors really are
| > clumsy and _do_ spoil the lines, then distress is a mild
| > term; but this is not what the questioner means. What
| > he actually means is: "Don't you resent the intrusion of
| > earthly and commonplace actors-as-such upon your
| > spiritual fancies?" To ask the question is to insinuate
| > that the playwright has mistaken his calling, since anybody
| > who feels like that has no business on the working
| > side of the stage-door. Such playwrights exist, but to be
| > supposed one of them is no compliment.
| > -- Dorothy L. Sayers: The Mind of the Maker
| >
|
| Obviously, Bloom isn't representing the point of view of the living
| playwright, which Sayers expresses above. You might say he's
against
| interpreting the plays in any way that changes the meaning away from
| the meaning they have in the tradition of English literature. He's
| not thrilled about "new-fangled" (post-circa-1950?) schools of
| criticism, either, and would probably say the same about "tenured
| radicals" who exercise their egos in tearing down the great poets.

A great division seems to exist between those who believe
Shakespeare's plays are written to be read as "closet dramas" and
those who believe "the play's the thing" and want to be in the
audience of a performance, where it comes alive. I guess literary
critics, especially of the "New Criticism" school, require written
texts.

| > > I would assume that he'd disapprove
| > > of the Hawke version, because the modern setting would interfere
with
| > > the proper message of the literature.
| >
| > Why not just disapprove of "modern" settings because they are
dissonant,
| > or condescending, or both? (n.b., I have not seen the Ethan Hawke
| > "Hamlet", and therefore I am not stating anything one way or
another
| > about whether it does or does not suffer from these faults.)
|
| I don't know what the specifics are of Harold Bloom's taste in
| Shakespeare productions, exactly. He is one of those
writers/teachers
| who are famous for applying broadly general terms of praise or
blame,
| without explaining precisely how or why those terms apply. I
assume,
| more or less, that a primary criterion for him is whether the
| production will provide an audience (less informed than himself)
with
| the knowledge -- as well as feelings, enjoyment, etc. -- they ought
to
| have about "Hamlet," or whether it will give them the wrong idea. I
| don't recall ever seeing him express an interest in cinematic art,
per
| se, and I would guess he counts film an "easy pleasure," as opposed
to
| the "difficult pleasures" that he prefers.

Probably right; would likely be bored by witnessing a play as a
reviewer. bb

| ----
| Bianca S.
John W. Kennedy
2004-05-05 01:08:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by bookburn
A great division seems to exist between those who believe
Shakespeare's plays are written to be read as "closet dramas" and
those who believe "the play's the thing" and want to be in the
audience of a performance, where it comes alive. I guess literary
critics, especially of the "New Criticism" school, require written
texts.
Well, when it comes to any playwright with a /floruit/ more than about a
century ago, the written texts have the invaluable (though admittedly
unfair) advantage of being obtainable.
--
John W. Kennedy
"Never try to take over the international economy based on a radical
feminist agenda if you're not sure your leader isn't a transvestite."
-- David Misch: "She-Spies", "While You Were Out"
biancas842001
2004-05-06 01:15:07 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by bookburn
| Obviously, Bloom isn't representing the point of view of the living
| playwright, which Sayers expresses above. You might say he's
against
| interpreting the plays in any way that changes the meaning away from
| the meaning they have in the tradition of English literature. He's
| not thrilled about "new-fangled" (post-circa-1950?) schools of
| criticism, either, and would probably say the same about "tenured
| radicals" who exercise their egos in tearing down the great poets.
A great division seems to exist between those who believe
Shakespeare's plays are written to be read as "closet dramas" and
those who believe "the play's the thing" and want to be in the
audience of a performance, where it comes alive.
Do you mean a supposed division between those who are good at what
they do but don't worry much about culture, and those who are really
conversant with the best that's been thought and said in their own
civilization? Both ways are okay. College professors, naturally, are
going to worry more about the latter, though.

I guess literary
Post by bookburn
critics, especially of the "New Criticism" school, require written
texts.
Not sure what you mean about requiring written texts.

Anyway, Bloom is about the age to have studied under the New Critics,
I think, even though he rejects "New Criticism." His approach seems a
little more focused on content and meaning than theirs, and also
rather more consciously idiosyncratic (if "idiosyncratic" is the right
word to suggest "less apparently inclined to imply that anyone
rational would come to the same conclusions").

[snip]
Post by bookburn
| I don't know what the specifics are of Harold Bloom's taste in
| Shakespeare productions, exactly. He is one of those
writers/teachers
| who are famous for applying broadly general terms of praise or
blame,
| without explaining precisely how or why those terms apply. I
assume,
| more or less, that a primary criterion for him is whether the
| production will provide an audience (less informed than himself)
with
| the knowledge -- as well as feelings, enjoyment, etc. -- they ought
to
| have about "Hamlet," or whether it will give them the wrong idea. I
| don't recall ever seeing him express an interest in cinematic art,
per
| se, and I would guess he counts film an "easy pleasure," as opposed
to
| the "difficult pleasures" that he prefers.
Probably right; would likely be bored by witnessing a play as a
reviewer. Bb
I've read what suggests Bloom doesn't actually shun the theater. His
model as a critic is, I understand, Dr. Johnson. I don't know enough
about Johnson to know exactly what that does or doesn't imply.

----
Bianca S.
bookburn
2004-05-06 06:20:42 UTC
Permalink
"biancas842001" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
| bookburn wrote:
|
| > "biancas842001" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| > news:***@posting.google.com...
| [snip]
| > | Obviously, Bloom isn't representing the point of view of the
living
| > | playwright, which Sayers expresses above. You might say he's
| > against
| > | interpreting the plays in any way that changes the meaning away
from
| > | the meaning they have in the tradition of English literature.
He's
| > | not thrilled about "new-fangled" (post-circa-1950?) schools of
| > | criticism, either, and would probably say the same about
"tenured
| > | radicals" who exercise their egos in tearing down the great
poets.
| >
| > A great division seems to exist between those who believe
| > Shakespeare's plays are written to be read as "closet dramas" and
| > those who believe "the play's the thing" and want to be in the
| > audience of a performance, where it comes alive.
|
| Do you mean a supposed division between those who are good at what
| they do but don't worry much about culture, and those who are really
| conversant with the best that's been thought and said in their own
| civilization? Both ways are okay. College professors, naturally,
are
| going to worry more about the latter, though.
|
| I guess literary
| > critics, especially of the "New Criticism" school, require written
| > texts.
|
| Not sure what you mean about requiring written texts.

In his refutation, here's what R. V. Young notes about the textual
criticism problem alleged by NC critics: ". . . the 'close reading'
practiced by the New Critics is a mere pedagogical device, an American
version of explication du texte, fit only for undergraduates in
provincial colleges."

The battle among adherents to New Criticism, Deconstruction, and now
Bloom's return to Romanticism seems to use the same kind of rhetoric
we see in h.l.a.s. by anti-Strats who allege Shakespeare has been
captured by formalistic academics.

| Anyway, Bloom is about the age to have studied under the New
Critics,
| I think, even though he rejects "New Criticism." His approach seems
a
| little more focused on content and meaning than theirs, and also
| rather more consciously idiosyncratic (if "idiosyncratic" is the
right
| word to suggest "less apparently inclined to imply that anyone
| rational would come to the same conclusions").

Young says Bloom also rejects the deconstructionists who rejected the
New Critics, even though he was among them at Yale. There's a funny
parrody about this in an e-novel after a Shakespeare tragedy, at
drakeraft.com, where the central character, a Yalee, tries to save
the good old department chairman from being outed by a young
Machiavellian, but has the limitations of a student in the department.

| [snip]
|
| > | I don't know what the specifics are of Harold Bloom's taste in
| > | Shakespeare productions, exactly. He is one of those
| > writers/teachers
| > | who are famous for applying broadly general terms of praise or
| > blame,
| > | without explaining precisely how or why those terms apply. I
| > assume,
| > | more or less, that a primary criterion for him is whether the
| > | production will provide an audience (less informed than himself)
| > with
| > | the knowledge -- as well as feelings, enjoyment, etc. -- they
ought
| > to
| > | have about "Hamlet," or whether it will give them the wrong
idea. I
| > | don't recall ever seeing him express an interest in cinematic
art,
| > per
| > | se, and I would guess he counts film an "easy pleasure," as
opposed
| > to
| > | the "difficult pleasures" that he prefers.
| >
| > Probably right; would likely be bored by witnessing a play as a
| > reviewer. Bb
|
| I've read what suggests Bloom doesn't actually shun the theater.
His
| model as a critic is, I understand, Dr. Johnson. I don't know
enough
| about Johnson to know exactly what that does or doesn't imply.

Probably both his literary acumen, rigerous academic training, and
forthright personal opinion? bb
| ----
| Bianca S.
biancas842001
2004-05-06 23:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by bookburn
In his refutation, here's what R. V. Young notes about the textual
criticism problem alleged by NC critics: ". . . the 'close reading'
practiced by the New Critics is a mere pedagogical device, an American
version of explication du texte, fit only for undergraduates in
provincial colleges."
Who's R. V. Young?

Anyway, that's old hat. Terry Eagleton and the Marxists (and
post-Marxians) have already said plenty about how English literature
studies are a means of incorporating subjects into a global empire.
Overblown, of course (and part of what Bloom opposes), but that's a
standard line.
Post by bookburn
The battle among adherents to New Criticism, Deconstruction, and now
Bloom's return to Romanticism seems to use the same kind of rhetoric
we see in h.l.a.s. by anti-Strats who allege Shakespeare has been
captured by formalistic academics.
Harold Bloom isn't anti-Deconstructionist so much as he's anti-theory.
He does use Freudian theory and is likely open to charges of
inconsistency on this count, but he gets away with it by calling Freud
"literature," not theory. I understand he gets along fairly well with
the deconstructionists at Yale, both psychoanalytical and not. He
sees our (English-language) literary culture as a Romantic culture,
and also as a Shakespearean culture, so basically Shakespeare and
Milton are proto-Romanticist. I can't think of anything written by
Bloom that addresses specific theories like deconstruction as a critic
of them. I think he sees theory as a way for people with no real
feeling for literature to find something to say about it.

I have trouble seeing how these kinds of concerns might be
incorporated in a question about who was "the real Shakespeare," as
you seem to imply.

[snip]

----
Bianca S.
bookburn
2004-05-07 01:37:02 UTC
Permalink
"biancas842001" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
| bookburn wrote:
| > In his refutation, here's what R. V. Young notes about the textual
| > criticism problem alleged by NC critics: ". . . the 'close
reading'
| > practiced by the New Critics is a mere pedagogical device, an
American
| > version of explication du texte, fit only for undergraduates in
| > provincial colleges."
| >
|
| Who's R. V. Young?
|
| Anyway, that's old hat. Terry Eagleton and the Marxists (and
| post-Marxians) have already said plenty about how English literature
| studies are a means of incorporating subjects into a global empire.
| Overblown, of course (and part of what Bloom opposes), but that's a
| standard line.
|
| > The battle among adherents to New Criticism, Deconstruction, and
now
| > Bloom's return to Romanticism seems to use the same kind of
rhetoric
| > we see in h.l.a.s. by anti-Strats who allege Shakespeare has been
| > captured by formalistic academics.
| >
|
| Harold Bloom isn't anti-Deconstructionist so much as he's
anti-theory.
| He does use Freudian theory and is likely open to charges of
| inconsistency on this count, but he gets away with it by calling
Freud
| "literature," not theory. I understand he gets along fairly well
with
| the deconstructionists at Yale, both psychoanalytical and not. He
| sees our (English-language) literary culture as a Romantic culture,
| and also as a Shakespearean culture, so basically Shakespeare and
| Milton are proto-Romanticist. I can't think of anything written by
| Bloom that addresses specific theories like deconstruction as a
critic
| of them. I think he sees theory as a way for people with no real
| feeling for literature to find something to say about it.
|
| I have trouble seeing how these kinds of concerns might be
| incorporated in a question about who was "the real Shakespeare," as
| you seem to imply.
|
| [snip]
|
| ----
| Bianca S.

Young's is Professor of English at North Carolina State University and
coeditor of the John Donne Journal. His article is at:
http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9308/articles/young.html
Here's the way his essay begins.

(quote)

The Old New Criticism and its Critics
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
R.V. Young
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Copyright (c) 1993 First Things 35 (August/September 1993): 38-44.

Among the pugnacious practitioners of academic literary studies, who
agree among themselves on almost nothing, there is one consensus: the
New Criticism-that is, the old New Criticism associated with the names
of T. S. Eliot, Allen Tate, John Crowe Ransom, Cleanth Brooks- that
New Criticism is over, finished, defunct. What is more, this shift in
critical fashion is widely perceived not merely as a routine scholarly
development, but as a great liberation, the lifting of an onerous
burden-as if literature professors had somehow been bearing the entire
weight of The World's Body upon their shoulders, or as if textbooks
like Understanding Poetry and Sound and Sense constituted a form of
bondage or a grand imposition on the credulity of college English
teachers. Never again, they seem to proclaim in the smug tone of
someone conscious of having recovered righteousness, will we submit to
that unhistorical formalism or subject our students to the cultural
elitism of canonical works. Everywhere the atmosphere of classrooms
and library bookstack carrels thickens with an almost palpable fog of
sanctimony.
(unquote)

I find the rhetoric in his review very colorful and intriguing, as he
goes on to describe "a very strange state of affairs" involving vying
factions of Marxists vs. Gnostics, archetypalists (Northrup Frye),
Parisian Structuralists, etc.. He doesn't get to Bloom until
paragraph 13, after considering Northrup Frye.

(quote)
. . . .
From Frye's quasi-religious perspective, literature constitutes a
"secular scripture," with its authority drawn not from its own
inherent revelatory features, but rather conferred by the interpreter,
for whom each work serves as a vehicle for his own mythic fantasies
and wish-fulfillments.

This is even more the case with one of Frye's most notable successors,
Harold Bloom, who began as a champion of the revolutionary Romantics,
especially Blake and Shelley, in the face of their depreciation by
Eliot and the New Critics. Bloom's animus against the New Criticism is
expressly political and religious, and in recent years-in Agon, for
example-he has identified himself as a "Jewish Gnostic." He adapts
Freudian concepts to the service of a visionary radicalism in which
the writing and reading of poetry are a displaced version of Oedipal
repression. The literary work becomes a contested site in which the
egos of the author, his literary predecessors, and his readers
struggle for psychic dominance.
(unquote)

Don't know if there is any ideological connection between critical
schools of interpretation and how literature is defined, and different
Shakespeare attribution theories. bb
biancas842001
2004-05-07 16:25:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by bookburn
Young's is Professor of English at North Carolina State University and
http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9308/articles/young.html
Here's the way his essay begins.
(quote)
The Old New Criticism and its Critics
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
R.V. Young
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Copyright (c) 1993 First Things 35 (August/September 1993): 38-44.
Among the pugnacious practitioners of academic literary studies, who
agree among themselves on almost nothing, there is one consensus: the
New Criticism-that is, the old New Criticism associated with the names
of T. S. Eliot, Allen Tate, John Crowe Ransom, Cleanth Brooks- that
New Criticism is over, finished, defunct. What is more, this shift in
critical fashion is widely perceived not merely as a routine scholarly
development, but as a great liberation, the lifting of an onerous
burden-as if literature professors had somehow been bearing the entire
weight of The World's Body upon their shoulders, or as if textbooks
like Understanding Poetry and Sound and Sense constituted a form of
bondage or a grand imposition on the credulity of college English
teachers. Never again, they seem to proclaim in the smug tone of
someone conscious of having recovered righteousness, will we submit to
that unhistorical formalism or subject our students to the cultural
elitism of canonical works. Everywhere the atmosphere of classrooms
and library bookstack carrels thickens with an almost palpable fog of
sanctimony.
(unquote)
I find the rhetoric in his review very colorful and intriguing, as he
goes on to describe "a very strange state of affairs" involving vying
factions of Marxists vs. Gnostics, archetypalists (Northrup Frye),
Parisian Structuralists, etc.. He doesn't get to Bloom until
paragraph 13, after considering Northrup Frye.
(quote)
. . . .
From Frye's quasi-religious perspective, literature constitutes a
"secular scripture," with its authority drawn not from its own
inherent revelatory features, but rather conferred by the interpreter,
for whom each work serves as a vehicle for his own mythic fantasies
and wish-fulfillments.
This is even more the case with one of Frye's most notable successors,
Harold Bloom, who began as a champion of the revolutionary Romantics,
especially Blake and Shelley, in the face of their depreciation by
Eliot and the New Critics. Bloom's animus against the New Criticism is
expressly political and religious, and in recent years-in Agon, for
example-he has identified himself as a "Jewish Gnostic." He adapts
Freudian concepts to the service of a visionary radicalism in which
the writing and reading of poetry are a displaced version of Oedipal
repression. The literary work becomes a contested site in which the
egos of the author, his literary predecessors, and his readers
struggle for psychic dominance.
(unquote)
Don't know if there is any ideological connection between critical
schools of interpretation and how literature is defined, and different
Shakespeare attribution theories. bb
The New Critics and Chicago Aristotelians, by focusing on the
functioning of the different parts of a literary text, to form a
whole, permitted non-Christians to learn about the English literary
tradition, including its most blatantly Christian aspects, such as the
Donne poem quoted by Young. I seem to remember Frye has a background
in theology or even ministry. Still, history is history, and
stylistics is something else entirely. And I wouldn't know how to
differentiate an ideological connection from a historically contingent
one.

Harold Bloom and Stanley Fish (also quoted by Young) tend to emphasize
the extent to which American culture is Christian, secular as it may
seem. A Christian theologian might well wish to take issue with such
a statement.

----
Bianca S.
Paul Crowley
2004-05-07 13:40:51 UTC
Permalink
I think he [Bloom] sees theory as a way for people with no real
feeling for literature to find something to say about it.
I have trouble seeing how these kinds of concerns might be
incorporated in a question about who was "the real Shakespeare," as
you seem to imply.
Take a look at ANY traditional (i.e. Stratfordian)
discourse on Shakespeare -- focus, for example,
on the 'exegeses' of, or commentaries on, the
Sonnets.

What will you see?

" . . . people with no real feeling for literature
[trying] to find something to say about it . . ."

although I would amend that to:

" . . . people with no feeling AT ALL for
literature [trying] to find something to
say about it . . ."

If ANYONE can find ANYTHING useful -- or
even interesting -- written by a Stratfordian
on the Sonnets -- or on any other part of the
canon, please quote it here.

The reason that it is all SO bad is because
Strats do not know who the poet was, nor why
he wrote the sonnets (and the other poems,
and the plays) nor who he wrote them for, nor
what they are about.


Paul.
Ed Baskins
2004-05-06 22:05:09 UTC
Permalink
FWIW, the modern setting in Ethan Hawkes' Hamlet works well; it's
Ethan Hawkes' Hamlet that doesn't work. He's just another hot-ticket
actor playing a one-dimensional "Hamlet on valium." I'm not so naive
to think there is only a few ways to portray Shakespeare characters,
but there are an infinite number of incorrect ways to play Hamlet. We
love Hamlet because he literally piques our interest (whether in
direct soliloquy or comic-mocking action): his highs are incredibly
high and his lows are incredibly low, but he's not 100% melancholy for
100% of the play. Too many actors want to bring the subtext to the
forefront, which bores and insults an audience.

I really did enjoy Kyle MacLachlan's Polonius and Sam Shepherd's
Ghost. Bill Murray's Polonius was so iambic-pentameter nuts that
there is little inflection in his sing-song recitation, which at times
looks like he's reading a teleprompter.

I wish Branagh had used the Mel Gibson cast for his film. Alan Bates
was how I read Claudius, rather than Jacobi's. The same goes for Ian
Holm's Polonius. But, to each his own.

Just my $.02

On Tue, 04 May 2004 14:12:12 GMT, "John W. Kennedy"
Post by John W. Kennedy
Post by biancas842001
Bloom seems to be very conservative in his tastes, and he's said that
the Shakespeare plays are for reading, not for theater. I think I've
read something where he disapproves of actors and directors putting
their own egos above Shakespeare.
But these are two entirely different issues.
I stress this matter, because the public mind is curiously
confused about it. The playwright is frequently
asked: "Doesn't it distress you to hear clumsy actors
spoiling your beautiful lines?" If the actors really are
clumsy and _do_ spoil the lines, then distress is a mild
term; but this is not what the questioner means. What
he actually means is: "Don't you resent the intrusion of
earthly and commonplace actors-as-such upon your
spiritual fancies?" To ask the question is to insinuate
that the playwright has mistaken his calling, since anybody
who feels like that has no business on the working
side of the stage-door. Such playwrights exist, but to be
supposed one of them is no compliment.
-- Dorothy L. Sayers: The Mind of the Maker
Post by biancas842001
I would assume that he'd disapprove
of the Hawke version, because the modern setting would interfere with
the proper message of the literature.
Why not just disapprove of "modern" settings because they are dissonant,
or condescending, or both? (n.b., I have not seen the Ethan Hawke
"Hamlet", and therefore I am not stating anything one way or another
about whether it does or does not suffer from these faults.)
Vandevere
2004-05-07 21:42:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Baskins
FWIW, the modern setting in Ethan Hawkes' Hamlet works well; it's
Ethan Hawkes' Hamlet that doesn't work. He's just another hot-ticket
actor playing a one-dimensional "Hamlet on valium." I'm not so naive
to think there is only a few ways to portray Shakespeare characters,
but there are an infinite number of incorrect ways to play Hamlet. We
love Hamlet because he literally piques our interest (whether in
direct soliloquy or comic-mocking action): his highs are incredibly
high and his lows are incredibly low, but he's not 100% melancholy for
100% of the play. Too many actors want to bring the subtext to the
forefront, which bores and insults an audience.
I really did enjoy Kyle MacLachlan's Polonius and Sam Shepherd's
Ghost. Bill Murray's Polonius was so iambic-pentameter nuts that
there is little inflection in his sing-song recitation, which at times
looks like he's reading a teleprompter.
I wish Branagh had used the Mel Gibson cast for his film. Alan Bates
was how I read Claudius, rather than Jacobi's. The same goes for Ian
Holm's Polonius. But, to each his own.
Just my $.02
I've always felt the Mel Gibson cast was *PERFECT*...

Everyone was just the way they should be...

Vandevere

Gary Kosinsky
2004-05-04 18:14:21 UTC
Permalink
On 3 May 2004 17:05:04 -0700, ***@yahoo.com
(biancas842001) wrote:
SNIP
Post by biancas842001
This seems to be the first thread that's actually been on Shakespeare
since I signed up here! What do you guys usually discuss?
The primary interest of this newsgroup is whether
William Shakespeare of Stratford wrote the works of
Shakespeare, or whether someone else did. (I kid you not.)

In case you're not familiar with it, there is a
mailing list called SHAKSPER which deals more with the plays
and suchlike, which you might be interested in. Details on
how to sign up are on the hlas faq at:

http://shakespeare.home.pages.de/


- Gary Kosinsky
Zspider
2004-05-04 20:56:05 UTC
Permalink
Bianca wrote:
This seems to be the first thread that's actually been on
Shakespeare since I signed up here! What do you guys
usually discuss?

***********
Seems like the group can go for days without a post on
literature. Off-topic crossposting is the norm. Sad,
huh?

Speaking of Shakespeare, there is a 4-week discussion of
Shakespeare's tragedies starting up at Barnes and Noble's
online university. Starts June 7, I believe. The price
is right. It's free. Historical, psychological, and
feminine approaches, according to the blurb.

Michael
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