Discussion:
Crowley's interpretation of Sonnet 18
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2010-04-08 15:15:43 UTC
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This is one of Paul Crowley's posts about Sonnet 18 that he
says I never presented an argument against.

from: "Paul Crowley" <***@slkjlskjoioue.com>

Local: Mon, Nov 17 2003 9:06 pm
Subject: Sonnet 18
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1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
2. Thou art more louely and more temperate:
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
4. And Sommers lease hath all too short a date:
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
8. By chance, or natures changing course vntrim'd:
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,

This poem is recognised as one of the most
beautiful of the sonnets and nothing I say
below should be read as detracting from its
qualities as a poem -- in the abstract manner
in which is it conventionally read. The poet
intended that reading. But he could not have
achieved that -- and the rest of its beauty
without building it upon a structure of multi-
layered meanings (nearly all which he made
obscure to the naive reader).

I do not know why this should be so. I'm sure
that no one else knows, nor has ever known --
not even the poet himself. All we can say is
that the method works. The formula appears
to be: encode density of meaning to the
maximum possible extent, while respecting
grammar, metre and verse, and leave the rest
to the magic of the language.

We do not have to understand those multi-
layered meanings in order to appreciate that
the poem is beautiful, but that appreciation
will be only of its top-most layer. It is
probably analogous to the love a child has
for a nursery rhyme.

Our poet also seemed to apply the rule that
he would only encode public meanings, or
those which would be available to posterity
as, nearly always, his images seem to have
such an origin; he has left us plenty of
clues as to their source.

1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?

The comparison of a person to a summer's
day is extraordinary -- almost magical. It is
commonly regarded as a supreme example of
Shakespeare's poetic imagination -- as, indeed,
it is. Helen Vendler writes: "What is the most
beautiful thing, the 'summum bonum', in an
(English) world? -- A summer's day."

The poet was teasing us. He knew that was
how we would read it (and the whole sonnet)
but in his mind he had other aspects of "a
summer's day". One is the transient nature of
its existence. Think of it in the context of his
adored's beauty. Would she have wished that
last but a day?

The comparison is far from 'pure imagination'.
Shakespeare's genius lay in knowing how to
recruit into his poetry images he encountered
in other circumstances. The poet and his
addressee knew of another beauty, that did
gloriously, but briefly, flower; and it is to this
he asks: 'Shall I compare thee . . ?'.

It is not too difficult to guess to whom the
phrase 'Summers day' refers -- once we know
that the addressee of the sonnet was Queen
Elizabeth, and to whom she was, at one stage
in her reign, constantly compared.

I strongly suspect that there was a particular
and immediate source for 'a Summers day',
and I describe a possibility in a note below.

2. Thou art more louely and more temperate:

Of course, Elizabeth comes off much more
favourably in this comparison. The poet
meant 'lovely' to be taken by his addressee
in the usual sense, but he had others also in
mind. 'Lovely' had a wider range of meanings
at the time, with its oldest senses being:
'loving, kind, affectionate'; 'amorous'; and
'friendly, amicable' (see OED). Taken in this
sense, the comparison was barbed.

Recent events had shown that the quality
Mary, Queen of Scots, most conspicuously
lacked was temperance. The poet may have
been referring back to elaborate plans for a
meeting between the two queens about four
years previously (in 1562):

"In London the prospect of the encounter was considered
sufficiently certain for the actual masques to be devised which
were to entertain the two queens, the chosen allegorical theme
being the punishment of False Report and Discord by Jupiter
at the request of Prudence and Temperance. The detailed and
long-winded plans for the masques -- three nights of them -- were
vetted personally by Cecil and much courtly care was exercised
in the delicate task of balancing the allegorical compliments to
both royal ladies . . " (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS* page 168)

3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,

This sonnet was written around April 1566
after the first 'rough patch' endured by Mary
-- the murder of David Riccio (on 9 March)
by her husband, King Henry (Darnley), Lord
Ruthven and several more of the Protestant
nobility:

" . . a few minutes later there was a far more astonishing apparition
up the staircase -- Patrick Lord Ruthven, with a steel cap on, and
with his armour showing through his gown, burning-eyed and pale
from the illness of which he was generally thought to be dying on
his sick-bed in a house close to Holyrood. So amazing was his
emergence at the queen's supper party, that the first reaction of
those present was that he was actually delirious, and had somehow
felt himself pursued, in his fever, by the spectre of one of his
victims.
[ as in Macbeth -- PC ] Ruthven -- who did in fact die three months
after these events took place -- was a highly unsavoury character,
popularly supposed to be a warlock or male witch, or at any rate in
Knox's phrase to 'use enchantment'. However, his first words left the
queen in no doubt as to what had brought this death's head to her
feast. 'Let it please your Majesty,' said Ruthven, 'that yonder man
David come forth of your privy-chamber where he hath been overlong.'
Mary replied with astonishment that Riccio was there at her own royal
wish, and asked Ruthven whether he had taken leave of his senses. . ."
(op. cit. page 252.)
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
'May' is (or was until recently) a common
abbreviation for 'Mary'. 'Rough winds' is
based on 'Ruth-ven'. 'Ruth' was a contemporary
Scottish form of 'rough' (see OED under 'ruth',
'routh' and 'rough'); the poet takes 'ven' as
based on 'vent' = 'wind' in French (pronounced
without the 't').

Another sense is that some windy (or
wordy) persons had turned rough.

" . . Damiot talked of his unpopularity. Riccio said grandly:
'Parole, parole, nothing but words. The Scots will boast but
rarely perform their brags.' Mary took the same line. Melville
tried to warn her also of what was going on . . . Mary replied
that something of the sort had also come to her own ears, but
she had paid no attention since 'our countrymen were well-
wordy' . ." (op. cit. page 249.)

There is a minor pun on 'darling/Darnley'
('darling Darnley' had highly effeminate looks
and had been young and pretty enough, at
least until recently).
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
The poet also intended bawdy puns. The
present tense in line 3 suggests that Mary was
currently enjoying vigorous sexual relations --
(possibly with Riccio). 'Darling buds' refers
in the political sense to the infant in her womb,
and in the bawdy one to her breasts; similarly
'shake' and 'rough winds' (in the sense of
'windings') alludes to sexual intercourse. It
was still possible for our poet to joke about the
intensity of Mary's passion for Darnley (and
Riccio?) and to speculate on the nature of their
love-making.

The line is an astonishing combination of the
meteorological /horticultural and the political,
both set against a gloriously bawdy image of
the entwined royal couple writhing in passion.

4. And Sommers lease hath all too short a date:

'All too short a date' refers to the sudden end
of David Riccio in both the obvious sense and
in other ways. His shortness of stature and his
ugliness were well-known. Mary was remarkably
tall to those times, and Darnley was even taller.)
Also the poet commonly bawdily puns on 'all' =
'awl' = 'penis'. He may be implying (in 'all too
short') that Riccio's penis was too short for the
Queen.

'Date' was a Scottish word: 'to pet, fondle, caress,
make much of'. See OED under 'daut'. (This
sense may, or may not, be related to the modern
usage of 'date' as a romantic appointment.)

Mary's summer passion for Darnley had been
remarkably intense but, in the nature of such
things, had a short lease of life. As Burghley
famously remarked: "Nuptiae Carnales a laetitia
incipiunt et in luctu terminantur."

There is something in 'Sommers lease' that
I cannot see. (John Somers was a high
ambassadorial official, and may have had
dealings with Riccio.)

A broader sense of line 4 may also be
addressed to Elizabeth. If she was to have an
heir of her body, she needed to get on with it.

5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,

The 'eye of heaven' is the sun -- a symbol of
royalty. Here the poet beautifully exploits the
bawdy potential of a 'hot' and a royal 'eye'
opening into a royal 'heaven' -- alluding, of
course, to the intensity of Mary's sexual
passion in her brief marriage with Darnley, and
the allegations of an affair with Riccio. 'Shines'
may reflect the sense of 'taking a shine' -- even
if the OED does not record this until 1848.

6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,

Line 5 refers to the (Queen in a sexual passion).
Line 6 refers to the King. There may be bawdy
allusions here, but "dimm'd" would refer to his
'eclipse' by Riccio, to his bouts of furious anger,
to his frequent illnesses (probably from syphilis,
pock-marking his face), to his regular shortages
of cash, and to his various 'changes' in religion.
'Complexion' often meant religious affiliation,
with 'gold' being associated with the Papacy
Darnley had been brought up a Catholic but he
started off in Scotland as Protestant (absenting
himself from the nuptial mass for his wedding);
he then seemed to revert to Catholicism carrying
lighted tapers through the streets of Edinburgh
at the feast of the Purification of the Virgin Mary
on 2 Feb 1566 -- a notably Catholic gesture --
which would have lit up his complexion. That
light was then dimmed by his plot with the
Protestant nobles to murder Riccio and seize
power from Mary. She then persuaded him to
join with her in the suppression of those same
nobles.

Darnley was addressed as 'King Henry' but he
was essentially only a consort. Even though
he had little interest in administration, he
constantly demanded the 'crown matrimonial'
which would grant him power equal to Mary
while she lived and would have continued
after her death if he survived her. Mary and
the Scottish parliament would not grant this,
leading to rows about the manner in which
they should sign documents and, in particular,
on the way their images should be presented
on coins.

"Certainly her violent infatuation for Darnley had not survived
the onsets of pregnancy, and she could after all no longer share
the pleasures of hunting and hawking which both had once
enjoyed so keenly. On 20 December, Bedford from Berwick
reported that, 'The Lord Darnley followeth his pastimes more
than the Queen is content withal; what it will breed hereafter
I cannot say, but in the meantime there is some misliking
between them.' On 25 December Randolph noted that 'a while
ago there was nothing but King and Queen, now the Queen's
husband is the common word. He was wont in all writings to be
first named: now he is placed second.' The relative placing of
the two names Henry and Mary was at the heart of the
mysterious matter of the silver 'ryal', a new denomination of
coin introduced shortly after their marriage at a nominal value
of thirty shillings. This 'ryal' showed the heads of Mary and
Darnley facing each other on one side, and on the other in
Latin a reference to their marriage - 'Whom God has joined
together, let no man put asunder'. In December Randolph also
reported that this coin had been withdrawn from circulation in
Scotland, because the names of the royal pair were engraved on
it in an unusual order as HENRICUS & MARIA D. GRA. R & R.
SCOTORUM. Randolph represented Mary as now regretting
the prominence given to Darnley's name, which for once
preceded that of the queen. " (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS*
page 240)

The 'dimming of the gold complexion' is
probably also a reference to the dispute
about these images, with the poet thinking
of gold coins.

7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,

The decline of 'faire from faire' refers mainly to
the deterioration of the royal marriage. Both
Mary and Darnley were known for their striking
beauty. ("In these portraits Darnley appears at
first sight like a young god, with his golden hair,
his perfectly shaped face with its short straight
nose, the neat oval chin . ." -- op. cit. page 220.)
It would also refer to the erosion of beauty with
age and illness, with particular reference to that
of Darnley, Mary and Elizabeth.

There may be other allusions as well, with a
pun on 'Ver' being likely; a 'Venus & Adonis'
relationship (of some sort) between Oxford
and the Queen is likely.

8. By chance, or natures changing course vntrim'd:

Both Mary and Darnley were known for their
addiction to card-playing and gambling -- as
was not uncommon among courtiers of the
day. 'Chance' or 'hazard' was a common card
game played by courtiers. The poet is
suggesting that a major reason for the decline
in the marriage was Darnley's generally
dissolute behaviour, particularly during
Mary's pregnancy.

Another reason for the decline was 'natures
changing course' -- where 'nature' is Mary (or
Elizabeth, or women generally). 'Untrimmed'
alludes viciously to the knife used to 'trim'
Riccio. (He had ~60 stab wounds, the fatal
ones probably from Darnley's dagger, wielded
by a Douglas relation.)

'Untrimmed' is also IMO used in a political
sense (even if the OED's first report in this
sense is 1682). OED 5 'trimmer' = 'one who
inclines to each of two opposite sides as
interest dictates'. Darnley seemed to exist
by 'trimming', and Mary had shown plenty of
devious 'trimming' in order to escape from her
captors.

'Untrimmed' also had a bawdy sense. 'To
trim' was to deflower or possess a woman.

AARON (TA V.1.89) . . .
'Twas her two sons that murder'd Bassianus;
They cut thy sister's tongue and ravish'd her
And cut her hands and trimm'd her as thou saw'st.
LUCIUS O detestable villain! call'st thou that trimming?
AARON Why, she was wash'd and cut and trimm'd, and 'twas
Trim sport for them that had the doing of it.
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
The poet is also alluding to Elizabeth's
behaviour since coming to the throne -- of
turning down numerous proposals of marriage.
He is, as ever, warning of the danger of this
conduct -- faire England will decline its
'untrimmed' faire queen.

9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,

The sestet focuses more on the English
Queen, but with allusions to Scotland, as
in 'fade' which was a Scottish form of 'feud'
at the time (see OED). States and monarchies
did not fade away; but they were destroyed
by feuds.

'Eternal' had another sense: a derogatory one
(which it still retains) for a period of time that
has lasted much longer than it should. Here
Oxford is being sarcastic. He shared the
common feeling that the duration of Elizabeth's
'summer' had become unconscionable. Mary's
pregnancy had emphasised the lack of
seriousness in Elizabeth's conduct in the
1560s, in particular the slow, reluctant manner
in which she 'sought' a husband.

10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,

'Owe' also meant 'own' -- and our poet must
necessarily pun on it. The 'faire' that Elizabeth
both owned and owed was her virginity -- and
through that -- her realm. The poet is implying
that her continued possession of former will
destroy that of the latter. She owed England
duties -- which she was not performing.

11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,

There is a reflection back to the dreadful
events in Scotland. The poet hopes that his
own queen will never see violent death
visited on her favourites in her presence.

The line hints at the bawdy sense of 'small
death' (orgasm); i.e. the Queen will not
enjoy this, if she is relying on poetry for her
immortality.

12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,

These lines have a scolding tone (which
became more strident in sonnets 1-17,
written a few years later). Like the rest of
the nation, he desperately wanted her to
marry and have an heir, and grow in 'loins'
and in family lines of descent, rather than
just in lines of poetry. 'Eternal' is again
used ambiguously.

13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,

The two 'long's of the couplet pun on the
'long couple' (Darnley and Mary both being
remarkable for their height and slenderness).

" . . her height, when described, is always commented on with
admiration. This may be in part due to the fact that, although tall,
Mary had extremely delicate bones . . . combined to give an
appearance of graceful elongation: it also made her an excellent
dancer . . in a manner calculated to dazzle the public eye at a
time when the personal image of a sovereign was of marked
consequence. . ." (op. cit. page 77.)
" . . It was Darnley's height which was considered at the time to
be his main physical characteristic -- had not Elizabeth called him
'yon long lad' when she pointed him out to Melville? -- and he
was fortunate in being slender with it, or as Melville put it, 'long
and small, even and straight'. His elegant physique could hardly
fail to commend itself to Mary for two reasons. Firstly, beautiful
as she was, Mary was nevertheless tall enough to tower over most
of her previous companions, including her first husband Francis.
The psychological implications of this height can only be guessed
at, but as Darnley was certainly well over six feet one inch . . "
(op. cit. page 221.)
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
The line again alludes to the Riccio murder --
with 'breathe' being partly ironic, or used in
the sense of 'breathe out' (through multiple
stab wounds) and/or OED 16: 'to lance [a vein]
so as to give blood'. The poet believes that
more deaths likely to follow (including that
of Darnley?) in the desperate confusion of
Scottish politics, created largely by Mary's
intemperate decision to marry him. The future
is uncertain: 'so long . . as eyes can see'.
There is probably a pun on 'eyes/Ays', with
(Och) 'Ays' = Scotsmen.

14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,

I am missing something in the final line or
in the couplet. However, the scolding tone
continues. Is immortal life in poetry all she
wants -- even if she assumes that she can
trust the poet's promises?

The first line of the couplet may allude to the
Scottish king; the second to its queen. The
poet expects her to survive; she is the
(undeclared) apparent heir. So long as she
lives, Elizabeth's throne is safe. (The English
would never remove Elizabeth while Mary
was next in line.) In another sense, Mary
was carrying a child. That 'life' would, in due
course, succeed Elizabeth.

NOTE on "The Queen of Hearts"

I believe that it is quite probable that the
nursery rhyme:
"The Queen of Hearts baked some tarts
All on a Summer's day . . "
came from the events of the second half
of 1565, and that it is the poet's source of
"a Summer's day".

The rhyme first appears in print in 1805, but
no queen, before or since Mary QS, had a
better claim to the title 'Queen of Hearts'.
She was immensely popular with her people
in the early 1560s, being young, beautiful,
full of life, charm and good humour, and in
1565 she was in the process of giving them
an heir to the throne. English noses were
somewhat out of joint as a result, especially
because the intense concern over the
absence of an heir to Elizabeth -- other than
Mary herself, who was feared and detested
on account of being Catholic, French and
a Guise.

However, with the disastrous marriage to
Darnley, followed by its entirely predictable
decline, the English were, for the first time,
in a position to make fun of her, of her
vicious, if foppish, husband, and of her
Italian 'lover'.

"Regardless of the fact that Lennox and Darnley had gone
north with her express permission, Elizabeth exploded with
anger and demanded their instant return. When neither paid
any attention to her angry bulletins, Throckmorton was sent
north to dissuade Mary from the disastrous, nay, menacing
course of marrying Darnley. Mary in Scotland was in no state
to listen to the advice of even the sagest counsellor. Love
was rampant in her heart for the first time, and she could hear
no other voice except the dictates of her own passionate
feelings. In the words of a poem of the period, it was a case
of 'O lusty May, with Flora Queen' at the court of Scotland.
Randolph wrote back to Leicester in anguish of his 'poor
Queen whom ever before I esteemed so worthy, so wise, so
honourable in all her doings', now so altered by love that he
could hardly recognize her." (op. cit. page 227.)

The phrase 'baked some tarts' would have
been meant bawdily. The Knave of Hearts
(who stole the tarts) was David Riccio, and
the King of Hearts was Darnley. Again, no
king before or after Darnley better suits that
title -- being young, beautiful, and violent.
And it is doubtful if a knave (fit for beating)
better than Riccio can be found.

The rhyme would have been become popular
before the murder of Riccio. That is unlikely
to have been the subject of such light-hearted
verse or, if it had been, we'd expect a stronger
reference. The 'beating' in the rhyme may
have been based on another known one by
Darnley or it may simply have reflected his
notorious character.

"Randolph reported [in May 1565] that Darnley was now
grown so proud that he was intolerable to all honest men,
and already almost forgetful of his duty to Mary -- she who
had adventured so much for his sake. Darnley's health had
taken an unconscionable long time to recover, and even
while on his sick-bed he had struck the ageing duke of
Châtelherault on his pate to avenge some fancied slight."
(op. cit. page 227.)

Darnley's pride waxed with the queen's affection: to show
his virility, he launched out characteristically with blows
towards those who he knew would not dare to retaliate.
On the day in May [1565] on which he was created earl of
Ross, he drew his dagger on the wretched justice clerk who
brought him the message, because he was not also made
duke of Albany as he had expected. It was the typical
gesture of the spoilt and vindictive child. By the beginning
of July, Darnley was held in such general contempt that
even those who had been his chief friends could no longer
find words to defend him. Randolph made the gloomy, but
as it proved singularly accurate, prophecy: 'I know not,
but it is greatly to be feared that he can have no long life
among these people' . .". (op. cit. page 228.)

The Queen of Hearts,
She made some tarts,
All on a summer's day;
The Knave of hearts,
He stole those tarts,
And took them clean away.

The King of Hearts
Called for the tarts,
And beat the knave full sore;
The Knave of hearts
Brought back the tarts,
And vowed he'd steal no more.

Paul.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-08 16:50:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
This is one of Paul Crowley's posts about Sonnet 18 that he
says I never presented an argument against.
I, of course, have, many times, but Paul refuses to accept that
I have. Either I can't quickly give him a pertinent URL or I
give him one containing something I think is an argument
but he doesn't, and he of course gets to decide.

Anyway, I'm away from home without much to do today
but able to get on the Internet, so I thought I'd revisit Paul's
truly insane "exegesis" of Sonnet 18, a a little at a time..
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1.   Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5.   Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6.   And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7.   And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9.   But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10.  Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11.  Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12.  When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13.      So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14.      So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
1.   Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
The comparison of a person to a summer's
day is extraordinary -- almost magical.   It is
commonly regarded as a supreme example of
Shakespeare's poetic imagination -- as, indeed,
it is.  Helen Vendler writes: "What is the most
beautiful thing, the 'summum bonum', in an
(English) world? -- A summer's day."
The poet was teasing us.  He knew that was
how we would read it (and the whole sonnet)
but in his mind he had other aspects of "a
summer's day".  One is the transient nature of
its existence.  Think of it in the context of his
adored's beauty.  Would she have wished that
last but a day?
The comparison is far from 'pure imagination'.
Shakespeare's genius lay in knowing how to
recruit into his poetry images he encountered
in other circumstances.  The poet and his
addressee knew of another beauty, that did
gloriously, but briefly, flower;  and it is to this
he asks: 'Shall I compare thee . . ?'.
It is not too difficult to guess to whom the
phrase 'Summers day' refers -- once we know
that the addressee of the sonnet was Queen
Elizabeth, and to whom she was, at one stage
in her reign, constantly compared.
But there is no indication whatever that this sonnet is
addressed to Queen Elizabeth. There is, in fact, no
clue whatever as to whom this sonnet was addressed, nor
even the sex of that person.

It is part of a sequence, so if we want to guess whom it's to,
we could reasonably see if there's a clue in the sonnets
preceding it. Those, to every sane person who reads them,
are addressed to a young man, not a woman, so not to
Queen Elizabeth.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I strongly suspect that there was a particular
and immediate source for 'a Summers day',
and I describe a possibility in a note below.
So far the Crowley Reading is "Shall I compare you,
Elizabeth, to a summer's day (to be identified later)?"
Except that the sonnet could be addressed to just about
anybody, and there's no reason to assume it was
addressed to Elizabeth, there is nothing wrong with it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Of course, Elizabeth comes off much more
favourably in this comparison.  The poet
meant 'lovely' to be taken by his addressee
in the usual sense, but he had others also in
mind.  'Lovely' had a wider range of meanings
'loving, kind, affectionate'; 'amorous'; and
'friendly, amicable' (see OED).  Taken in this
sense, the comparison was barbed.
Recent events had shown that the quality
Mary, Queen of Scots, most conspicuously
lacked was temperance.   The poet may have
been referring back to elaborate plans for a
meeting between the two queens about four
Queen Elizabeth was known to throw tantrums. Not
everyone would deem her particularly temperate. Again,
though, the sonneteer might have. There is nothing to
indicate that Mary is in the poem, I should add. Crowley
just sticks her in.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"In London the prospect of the encounter was considered
sufficiently certain for the actual masques to be devised which
were to entertain the two queens, the chosen allegorical theme
being the punishment of False Report and Discord by Jupiter
at the request of Prudence and Temperance. The detailed and
long-winded plans for the masques -- three nights of them -- were
vetted personally by Cecil and much courtly care was exercised
in the delicate task of balancing the allegorical compliments to
both royal ladies . . "  (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS* page 168)
Lots of masques, plays, poems, romance, pamphlets, sermons, etc.
were about prudence and temperance. There's no reason whatever
to claim any particular one of them had anything to do with this
sonnet.

Note that so far Crowely has provided no word for word explication of
the poem.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
This sonnet was written around April 1566
after the first 'rough patch' endured by Mary
-- the murder of David Riccio (on 9 March)
by her husband, King Henry (Darnley), Lord
Ruthven and several more of the Protestant
Lot os people experience "rough patches." It is ridiculously
arbitrary to maintain that the word, "rough," in this context
has anything to do with any particular rough patch. It is clearly
used merely to indicate that a summer day is not necessarily
wholly serene.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
" . . a few minutes later there was a far more astonishing apparition
up the staircase -- Patrick Lord Ruthven, with a steel cap on, and
with his armour showing through his gown, burning-eyed and pale
from the illness of which he was generally thought to be dying on
his sick-bed in a house close to Holyrood. So amazing was his
emergence at the queen's supper party, that the first reaction of
those present was that he was actually delirious, and had somehow
felt himself pursued, in his fever, by the spectre of one of his
victims.
[ as in Macbeth -- PC ]  Ruthven -- who did in fact die three months
after these events took place -- was a highly unsavoury character,
popularly supposed to be a warlock or male witch, or at any rate in
Knox's phrase to 'use enchantment'.  However, his first words left the
queen in no doubt as to what had brought this death's head to her
feast. 'Let it please your Majesty,' said Ruthven, 'that yonder man
David come forth of your privy-chamber where he hath been overlong.'
Mary replied with astonishment that Riccio was there at her own royal
wish, and asked Ruthven whether he had taken leave of his senses. . ."
 (op. cit. page 252.)
So what?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
'May' is (or was until recently) a common
abbreviation for 'Mary'.  'Rough winds' is
based on 'Ruth-ven'.  'Ruth' was a contemporary
Scottish form of 'rough' (see OED under 'ruth',
'routh' and 'rough');  the poet takes 'ven' as
based on 'vent' = 'wind' in French (pronounced
without the 't').
Another sense is that some windy (or
wordy) persons had turned rough.
'Parole, parole, nothing but words. The Scots will boast but
rarely perform their brags.' Mary took the same line. Melville
tried to warn her also of what was going on . .  . Mary replied
that something of the sort had also come to her own ears, but
she had paid no attention since 'our countrymen were well-
wordy' . ." (op. cit. page 249.)
There is a minor pun on 'darling/Darnley'
('darling Darnley' had highly effeminate looks
and had been young and pretty enough, at
least until recently).
"Darling" is not a pun for "Darnley"--neither syllable of
"Darnley" matches either of "darling."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
The poet also intended bawdy puns.  The
present tense in line 3 suggests that Mary was
currently enjoying vigorous sexual relations --
(possibly with Riccio).  'Darling buds' refers
in the political sense to the infant in her womb,
and in the bawdy one to her breasts; similarly
'shake' and 'rough winds' (in the sense of
'windings') alludes to sexual intercourse.  It
was still possible for our poet to joke about the
intensity of Mary's passion for Darnley (and
Riccio?) and to speculate on the nature of their
love-making.
The line is an astonishing combination of the
meteorological /horticultural and the political,
both set against a gloriously bawdy image of
the entwined royal couple writhing in passion.
Fine. Give us the word for word paraphrase of it. Can you?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'All too short a date' refers to the sudden end
of David Riccio in both the obvious sense and
in other ways.
Your narrative to this point seems to be saying that Elizabeth
is more temperate than Mary, whose get banged by Ruthven What
does "the sudden end" of Riccio have to do with this.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
 His shortness of stature and his
ugliness were well-known.  Mary was remarkably
tall to those times, and Darnley was even taller.)
Also the poet commonly bawdily puns on 'all' =
'awl' = 'penis'.  He may be implying  (in 'all too
short') that Riccio's penis was too short for the
Queen.
'Date' was a Scottish word: 'to pet, fondle, caress,
make much of'.  See OED under 'daut'.  (This
sense may, or may not, be related  to the modern
usage of 'date' as a romantic appointment.)
Mary's summer passion for Darnley had been
remarkably intense but, in the nature of such
things, had a short lease of life.  As Burghley
famously remarked: "Nuptiae Carnales a laetitia
incipiunt et in luctu terminantur."
There is something in 'Sommers lease' that
I cannot see.  (John Somers was a high
ambassadorial official, and may have had
dealings with Riccio.)
A broader sense of line 4 may also be
addressed to Elizabeth.  If she was to have an
heir of her body, she needed to get on with it.
So, paraphrase the line. I have no idea what you're
saying it means for you, so I can't critique it, except to
say that pulling words out of your rigidniplex concerning
Elizabeth and Mary whenever there's any kind of
possible connection to a word in the line in not
responsible paraphrasing.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
5.   Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
The 'eye of heaven' is the sun -- a symbol of
royalty.  Here the poet beautifully exploits the
bawdy potential of a 'hot' and a royal 'eye'
opening into a royal 'heaven' -- alluding, of
course, to the intensity of Mary's sexual
passion in her brief marriage with Darnley,
In that case, the poem's speaker is calling Mary "heaven."
How can he then think Elizabeth superior to her?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and the allegations of an affair with Riccio.  'Shines'
may reflect the sense of 'taking a shine' -- even
if  the OED does not record this until 1848.
6.   And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
Line 5 refers to the (Queen in a sexual passion).
There's no reference to "queen" in line 5, nor
to a "king" in line 6. The two lines are clearly about
the same entity, "summer"--sometimes his eye
is too hot and often is his complexion dimmed, yet
you claim line 5 is about Mary, line 6 about some
male king--Darnley? Hence, you have one of the two
lines wrong.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Line 6 refers to the King.  There may be bawdy
allusions here, but "dimm'd" would refer to his
'eclipse' by Riccio, to his bouts of furious anger,
to his frequent illnesses (probably from syphilis,
pock-marking his face), to his regular shortages
of cash, and to his various 'changes' in religion.
'Complexion' often meant religious affiliation,
with 'gold' being associated with the Papacy
Darnley had been brought up a Catholic but he
started off in Scotland as Protestant (absenting
himself from the nuptial mass for his wedding);
he then seemed to revert to Catholicism carrying
lighted tapers through the streets of Edinburgh
at the feast of the Purification of the Virgin Mary
on 2 Feb 1566 -- a notably Catholic gesture --
which would have lit up his complexion.  That
light was then dimmed by his plot with the
Protestant nobles to murder Riccio and seize
power from Mary.   She then persuaded him to
join with her in the suppression of those same
nobles.
You are arbitrarily pinning meanings to words. Without
giving a word for word explication.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Darnley was addressed as 'King Henry' but he
was essentially only a consort.  Even though
he had little interest in administration, he
constantly demanded the 'crown matrimonial'
which would grant him power equal to Mary
while she lived and would have continued
after her death if he survived her. Mary and
the Scottish parliament would not  grant this,
leading to rows about the manner in which
they should sign documents and, in particular,
on the way their images should be presented
on coins.
There's nothing in the line to link it to Darnley.
Or anything but a summer's day.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"Certainly her violent infatuation for Darnley had not survived
the onsets of pregnancy, and she could after all no longer share
the pleasures of hunting and hawking which both had once
enjoyed so keenly.  On 20 December, Bedford from Berwick
reported that, 'The Lord Darnley followeth his pastimes more
than the Queen is content withal; what it will breed hereafter
I cannot say, but in the meantime there is some misliking
between them.' On 25 December Randolph noted that 'a while
ago there was nothing but King and Queen, now the Queen's
husband is the common word. He was wont in all writings to be
first named: now he is placed second.' The relative placing of
the two names Henry and Mary was at the heart of the
mysterious matter of the silver 'ryal', a new denomination of
coin introduced shortly after their marriage at a nominal value
of thirty shillings. This 'ryal' showed the heads of Mary and
Darnley facing each other on one side, and on the other in
Latin a reference to their marriage - 'Whom God has joined
together, let no man put asunder'. In December Randolph also
reported that this coin had been withdrawn from circulation in
Scotland, because the names of the royal pair were engraved on
it in an unusual order as HENRICUS & MARIA D. GRA. R & R.
SCOTORUM. Randolph represented Mary as now regretting
the prominence given to Darnley's name, which for once
preceded that of the queen. "  (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS*
page 240)
The 'dimming of the gold complexion' is
probably also a reference to the dispute
about these images, with the poet thinking
of gold coins.
Hey, maybe he had a gold tooth, too.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
7.   And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
The decline of 'faire from faire' refers mainly to
the deterioration of the royal marriage.
Why. And how does that fit your narrative? Can you
explicate this line, rather than just float vague opinions
about it?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Botj Mary and Darnley were known for their striking
beauty. ("In these portraits Darnley appears at
first sight like a young god, with his golden hair,
his perfectly shaped face with its short straight
nose, the neat oval chin . ." -- op. cit. page 220.)
It would also refer to the erosion of beauty with
age and illness, with particular reference to that
of Darnley, Mary and Elizabeth.
There may be other allusions as well, with a
pun on 'Ver' being likely;  a 'Venus & Adonis'
relationship (of some sort) between Oxford
and the Queen is likely.
No effective poet is going to clutter a poem with
the multitude of incongruous images you think this
one does.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Both Mary and Darnley were known for their
addiction to card-playing and gambling -- as
was not uncommon among courtiers of the
day.  'Chance' or 'hazard' was a common card
game played by courtiers.   The poet is
suggesting that a major reason for the decline
in the marriage was Darnley's generally
dissolute behaviour, particularly during
Mary's pregnancy.
Another reason for the decline was 'natures
changing course' -- where 'nature' is Mary (or
Elizabeth, or women generally).  'Untrimmed'
alludes viciously to the knife used to 'trim'
Riccio.  (He had ~60 stab wounds, the fatal
ones probably from Darnley's dagger, wielded
by a Douglas relation.)
Fair things decline due to gambling, Mary's changeableness,
which trims Riccio? But the poem is saying every fair sometimes
declines; it is not alluding to any particular fair.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'Untrimmed' is also IMO used in a political
sense (even if the OED's first report in this
sense is 1682). OED 5 'trimmer' = 'one who
inclines to each of two opposite sides as
interest dictates'.  Darnley seemed to exist
by 'trimming', and Mary had shown plenty of
devious 'trimming' in order to escape from her
captors.
If you are a trimmer, you don't become "untrimmed."
The linguistics are wrong.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'Untrimmed' also had a bawdy sense.  'To
trim' was to deflower or possess a woman.
Right: cram some bawdry into it whether it fits
in any way or not. Some poets, you should know, though
favor keeping focus.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
AARON      (TA  V.1.89) . . .
        'Twas her two sons that murder'd Bassianus;
        They cut thy sister's tongue and ravish'd her
        And cut her hands and trimm'd her as thou saw'st.
LUCIUS   O detestable villain! call'st thou that trimming?
AARON   Why, she was wash'd and cut and trimm'd, and 'twas
                    Trim sport for them that had the doing of it.
7.   And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
"Trimmed" in one, and "untrimmed" in the other. Sounds to
me (aside from one of Art's lunatic word-games) like the fairs
of line 7 are given their virginity in line 8, untrimming having
to be the oppositre of trimming (for users of English).
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The poet is also alluding to Elizabeth's
behaviour since coming to the throne -- of
turning down numerous proposals of marriage.
He is, as ever, warning of the danger of this
conduct -- faire England will decline its
'untrimmed' faire queen.
This interpretation would work if you could show the poem was
to Elizabeth, and that line 7 referred to her and not to Mary.
You don't spell out your narrative, though, so we can't know which
it does, and how.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
9.   But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
The sestet focuses more on the English
Queen, but with allusions to Scotland, as
in 'fade' which was a Scottish form of 'feud'
at the time (see OED).  States and monarchies
did not fade away;  but they were destroyed
by feuds.
'Eternal' had another sense: a derogatory one
(which it still retains) for a period of time that
has lasted much longer than it should.  Here
Oxford is being sarcastic.  He shared the
common feeling that the duration of Elizabeth's
'summer' had become unconscionable.  Mary's
pregnancy had emphasised the lack of
seriousness in Elizabeth's conduct in the
1560s, in particular the slow, reluctant manner
in which she 'sought' a husband.
If he thought her summer too long, why did he say
it would not fade? Oh, yes, sarcasm. If the poem says
anything you don't think it should, it proves sarcasm is
going on, even though there's no warning of it, no set-up.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
10.  Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
'Owe' also meant 'own' -- and our poet must
necessarily pun on it.  The 'faire' that Elizabeth
both owned and owed was her virginity -- and
through that -- her realm.   The poet is implying
that her continued possession of former will
destroy that of the latter.  She owed England
duties -- which she was not performing.
Right. Assume the line means the opposite of what
it says do to sarcasm. the problem with that is that
you can make it say anything you want it to that way.
I could say the poem is in praise of Mary, in which
case line 2 is sarcastically saying Elizabeth is the
lovelier of the two, which wasn't true. Etc.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
11.  Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
There is a reflection back to the dreadful
events in Scotland.  The poet hopes that his
own queen will never see violent death
visited on her favourites in her presence.
What does that have to do with your narrative to this point?
And why does it have to mean just that rather than any
of a hundred other things it could easily mean--if we
ignore the fact that it obviously only means exactly what
it says, that the addressee will not enter the country
that others who die do--for a reason we'll soon be told.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The line hints at the bawdy sense of 'small
death' (orgasm);  i.e. the Queen will not
enjoy this, if she is relying on poetry for her
immortality.
There is no sane reason to believe there's anything
bawdy about this line.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
12.  When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
These lines have a scolding tone (which
became more strident in sonnets 1-17,
written a few years later).  Like the rest of
the nation, he desperately wanted her to
marry and have an heir, and grow in 'loins'
and in family lines of descent, rather than
just in lines of poetry.  'Eternal' is again
used ambiguously.
Why not give us your word for word explication?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
13.      So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
The two 'long's of the couplet pun on the
'long couple' (Darnley and Mary both being
remarkable for their height and slenderness).
How does that work in English, Paul? What does that
make the two lines "really" say (aside from their nursery
rhyme meaning for the uninitiated)? "So long couple as mean
can breathe or eyes can see?"
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
" . .  her height, when described, is always commented on with
admiration. This may be in part due to the fact that, although tall,
Mary had extremely delicate bones . . . combined to give an
appearance of graceful elongation: it also made her an excellent
dancer . .  in a manner calculated to dazzle the public eye at a
time when the personal image of a sovereign was of marked
consequence. . ."  (op. cit. page 77.)
" . .  It was Darnley's height which was considered at the time to
be his main physical characteristic -- had not Elizabeth called him
'yon long lad' when she pointed him out to Melville? -- and he
was fortunate in being slender with it, or as Melville put it, 'long
and small, even and straight'. His elegant physique could hardly
fail to commend itself to Mary for two reasons. Firstly, beautiful
as she was, Mary was nevertheless tall enough to tower over most
of her previous companions, including her first husband Francis.
The psychological implications of this height can only be guessed
at, but as Darnley was certainly well over six feet one inch . . "
 (op. cit. page 221.)
13.      So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
The line again alludes to the Riccio murder --
with 'breathe' being partly ironic, or used in
the sense of 'breathe out' (through multiple
stab wounds)
This is totally insane. "So long couple as men can breathe out
through Riccio's multiple stab wounds or eyes can see?"
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and/or OED 16: 'to lance [a vein]
so as to give blood'.  The poet believes that
more deaths likely to follow (including that
of Darnley?) in the desperate confusion of
Scottish politics, created largely by Mary's
intemperate decision to marry him.  The future
is uncertain: 'so long . .  as eyes can see'.
There is probably a pun on 'eyes/Ays', with
(Och) 'Ays' = Scotsmen.
14.      So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
I am missing something in the final line or
in the couplet.  However, the scolding tone
continues.  Is immortal life in poetry all she
wants -- even if she assumes that she can
trust the poet's promises?
The first line of the couplet may allude to the
Scottish king;  the second to its queen.  The
poet expects her to survive; she is the
(undeclared) apparent heir.  So long as she
lives, Elizabeth's throne is safe.  (The English
would never remove Elizabeth while Mary
was next in line.)  In another sense, Mary
was carrying a child.  That 'life' would, in due
course, succeed Elizabeth.
    NOTE on "The Queen of Hearts"
I believe that it is quite probable that the
   "The Queen of Hearts baked some tarts
    All on a Summer's day . . "
came from the events of the second half
of 1565, and that it is the poet's source of
"a Summer's day".
There's no reason to believe "a summer's day" came
from the nursery rhyme. So the sonnet and the rhyme had
the same phrase, so what?

I'm ending here, for now. I can't say what's wrong with
your explication until you give one, Paul. What I can say is
that your various thoughts about the meaning of the lines
are worthless unless you can show in detail how what the
poem says indicates your meaning.

--Bob
Paul Crowley
2010-04-09 11:39:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
This is one of Paul Crowley's posts about Sonnet 18
This is an ancient post, made at an early
stage in my investigation of Sonnet 18.
Among a great deal omitted, it does not
have the one point to which you love
to object -- my reading of "Summer's
day" -- with 'Somer' being Darnley and
his 'day' being the Cockney 'die'.

That came later and was, in fact, far
from crucial to my reading. However
it is a striking image and (as in your
case) will be the first thing to attract
pathetic misdirected derision from
Strats and quasi-Strats.

(In retrospect, it seems odd how it
took me so long to see it. But then we
should never be surprised at stupidity.)
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
that he
says I never presented an argument against.
I, of course, have, many times, but Paul refuses to accept that
I have. Either I can't quickly give him a pertinent URL or I
give him one containing something I think is an argument
but he doesn't, and he of course gets to decide.
Anyway, I'm away from home without much to do today
but able to get on the Internet, so I thought I'd revisit Paul's
truly insane "exegesis" of Sonnet 18, a a little at a time..
Do it on my current version, which
I will post separately.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
It is not too difficult to guess to whom the
phrase 'Summers day' refers -- once we know
that the addressee of the sonnet was Queen
Elizabeth, and to whom she was, at one stage
in her reign, constantly compared.
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
But there is no indication whatever that this sonnet is
addressed to Queen Elizabeth.
Naturally you want me to prove every aspect
of my exegesis before I state any part of it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
There is, in fact, no clue whatever as to whom
this sonnet was addressed, nor even the sex of
that person.
The Sonnet is about a 'comparison'.
The most commonly made one in
that era was between the two most
remarkable and powerful females on
the island. Note how acutely the
phrasing of the first line fits that
situation. This Sonnet has probably
be paraphrased a hundred million
times. In nearly all cases, those
paraphrases would have failed to get
the right tone. The poet does not ask
"Can I compare thee . . .?" nor
"Should I compare thee . . .?" nor
"May I compare thee . . .?" nor
"Let me compare thee . . .?" nor
"Will I compare thee . . .?" nor
"Could I compare thee . . .?" nor
"Say I compare thee . . .?".

Each of those questions would not
fit -- since each implies varying
degrees of impertinence,

We can see in this Sonnet that two
entities are compared for 'beauty', and
for other virtues, and that the 'eternal
Sommer' of one of them matters
immensely.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
It is part of a sequence, so if we want to guess
whom it's to, we could reasonably see if there's
a clue in the sonnets preceding it. Those, to
every sane person who reads them, are
addressed to a young man, not a woman, so not
to Queen Elizabeth.
These are the 'sane people' who believe
that the son of illiterates, brought up in
an illiterate household, would write
sonnets for living -- addressed to the
scion of a noble family who paid the
low-class poet to write homosexual love
poetry to him to persuade him to marry
(someone, anyone) so that he could
pass on his beauty before he lost it.

Do you really think such people are sane?

[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Recent events had shown that the quality
Mary, Queen of Scots, most conspicuously
lacked was temperance. The poet may have
been referring back to elaborate plans for a
meeting between the two queens about four
Queen Elizabeth was known to throw tantrums
No more than most rulers -- but the
point is that she never (or very rarely)
acted upon them.
.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Not everyone would deem her particularly
temperate.
Most historians do, in fact, come to that
judgement. Name some intemperate
actions on her part.

In any case, we are talking about what
her poet would be likely to say to her
around 1566.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Again, though, the sonneteer might
have. There is nothing to indicate that Mary is
in the poem, I should add. Crowley just sticks
her in.
Name two other figures in history (at
any time, in any culture) who were the
subject of so many comparisons.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"In London the prospect of the encounter was considered
sufficiently certain for the actual masques to be devised which
were to entertain the two queens, the chosen allegorical theme
being the punishment of False Report and Discord by Jupiter
at the request of Prudence and Temperance. The detailed and
long-winded plans for the masques -- three nights of them -- were
vetted personally by Cecil and much courtly care was exercised
in the delicate task of balancing the allegorical compliments to
both royal ladies . . " (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS* page 168)
Lots of masques, plays, poems, romance,
pamphlets, sermons, etc. were about prudence
and temperance.
So many that you can list at least one
-- or even two.

Let's see the list.

IOW -- you are bullshitting, and you
know it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
There's no reason whatever to claim any
particular one of them had anything to do with
this sonnet.
There is FAR more reason to associate
this masque with this Sonnet than there
is to associate the shipwreck on
Bermuda with 'The Tempest'. (A reader
at the time could hardly fail to link these
two, whereas a playgoer in 1611 would
not know what sense to make of 'The
Tempest' IF (huge IF) it had been put
on soon after that shipwreck.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Note that so far Crowely has provided no word
for word explication of the poem.
Only dolts would expect one.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
This sonnet was written around April 1566
after the first 'rough patch' endured by Mary
-- the murder of David Riccio (on 9 March)
by her husband, King Henry (Darnley), Lord
Ruthven and several more of the Protestant
Lot os people experience "rough patches." It is
ridiculously arbitrary to maintain that the word,
"rough," in this context has anything to do with
any particular rough patch.
Would that particular 'rough patch' have
been of interest to the English court
around April 1566? Would they have
gossiped about it? Does it -- or does
it not -- fit my scenario for this Sonnet?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
It is clearly used merely to indicate that a
summer day is not necessarily wholly serene.
Half-wit.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
" . . a few minutes later there was a far more astonishing apparition
up the staircase -- Patrick Lord Ruthven, with a steel cap on, and
with his armour showing through his gown, burning-eyed and pale
from the illness of which he was generally thought to be dying on
his sick-bed in a house close to Holyrood. So amazing was his
emergence at the queen's supper party, that the first reaction of
those present was that he was actually delirious, and had somehow
felt himself pursued, in his fever, by the spectre of one of his
victims.
[ as in Macbeth -- PC ] Ruthven -- who did in fact die three months
after these events took place -- was a highly unsavoury character,
popularly supposed to be a warlock or male witch, or at any rate in
Knox's phrase to 'use enchantment'. However, his first words left the
queen in no doubt as to what had brought this death's head to her
feast. 'Let it please your Majesty,' said Ruthven, 'that yonder man
David come forth of your privy-chamber where he hath been overlong.'
Mary replied with astonishment that Riccio was there at her own royal
wish, and asked Ruthven whether he had taken leave of his senses. . ."
(op. cit. page 252.)
So what?
Does it -- or does it not -- fit my
scenario for this Sonnet?

You MUST say that it does not,
OR -- insofar as it does -- that any
apparent matching arises merely
by chance. So what are the odds
that it did arise by chance?

Name another event in English or
any other history that these words
fit as well. Oh -- you can't -- what
a surprise! So let's say that your
inability (and that of every other
Strat and quasi-Strat in the world)
gives us odds here of 10,000 to one.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'All too short a date' refers to the sudden end
of David Riccio in both the obvious sense and
in other ways.
Your narrative to this point seems to be saying
that Elizabeth is more temperate than Mary,
whose get banged by Ruthven What does "the
sudden end" of Riccio have to do with this.
Mary's "date" with her 'date' Riccio
(a short and ugly Italian) was brought
short by his violent death. Darnley's
'lease/leash proved too short.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
His shortness of stature and his
ugliness were well-known. Mary was remarkably
tall to those times, and Darnley was even taller.)
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
A broader sense of line 4 may also be
addressed to Elizabeth. If she was to have an
heir of her body, she needed to get on with it.
So, paraphrase the line. I have no idea what you're
saying it means for you, so I can't critique it, except to
say that pulling words out of your rigidniplex concerning
Elizabeth and Mary whenever there's any kind of
possible connection to a word in the line in not
responsible paraphrasing.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
The 'eye of heaven' is the sun -- a symbol of
royalty. Here the poet beautifully exploits the
bawdy potential of a 'hot' and a royal 'eye'
opening into a royal 'heaven' -- alluding, of
course, to the intensity of Mary's sexual
passion in her brief marriage with Darnley,
In that case, the poem's speaker is calling Mary
"heaven." How can he then think Elizabeth
superior to her?
He would not have said Elizabeth was
superior to Mary. They were both royalty
-- and anointed monarchs. Both are
referred to as 'heaven' (Elizabeth in other
Sonnets -- but it was an Early Modern/
Medieval convention.)
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and the allegations of an affair with Riccio. 'Shines'
may reflect the sense of 'taking a shine' -- even
if the OED does not record this until 1848.
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
Line 5 refers to the (Queen in a sexual passion).
There's no reference to "queen" in line 5, nor to
a "king" in line 6. The two lines are clearly
about the same entity, "summer"--sometimes
his eye is too hot and often is his complexion
dimmed, yet you claim line 5 is about Mary, line
6 about some male king--Darnley? Hence, you
have one of the two lines wrong.
Lines 5 and 6 are meant to be read in
your way -- BUT they can also be read
in mine, and the poet intended that as
well. He was exploiting a concept
called 'ambiguity'. I appreciate that
you are unfamiliar with it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Line 6 refers to the King. There may be bawdy
allusions here, but "dimm'd" would refer to his
'eclipse' by Riccio, to his bouts of furious anger,
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
nobles.
You are arbitrarily pinning meanings to words.
Without giving a word for word explication.
Systematic ambiguity does not lend
itself to word-for-word 'explications'.
If, in a sentence of seven words, each
word has two meanings, the total
number of meanings of the sentence
is 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 128.
No one would write out 128 sentences
detailing each meaning.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Darnley was addressed as 'King Henry' but he
was essentially only a consort. Even though
he had little interest in administration, he
constantly demanded the 'crown matrimonial'
which would grant him power equal to Mary
while she lived and would have continued
after her death if he survived her. Mary and
the Scottish parliament would not grant this,
leading to rows about the manner in which
they should sign documents and, in particular,
on the way their images should be presented
on coins.
There's nothing in the line to link it to Darnley.
Or anything but a summer's day.
Does the line fit Darnley -- and his
behaviour and appearance in late
1565 and early 1566 ?

You MUST say that it does not,
OR -- insofar as it does -- that any
apparent matching arises merely
by chance. So what are the odds
that it did arise by chance?

Name another person in English or
any other history that these words
fit as well. Oh -- you can't -- what
a surprise! So let's say that your
inability (and that of every other
Strat and quasi-Strat in the world)
gives us odds here of 1,000 to one.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"Certainly her violent infatuation for Darnley had not survived
the onsets of pregnancy, and she could after all no longer share
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
preceded that of the queen. " (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS*
page 240)
The 'dimming of the gold complexion' is
probably also a reference to the dispute
about these images, with the poet thinking
of gold coins.
Hey, maybe he had a gold tooth, too.
Does the line fit Darnley -- and his
behaviour and appearance in late
1565 and early 1566 ?

You MUST say that it does not,
OR -- insofar as it does -- that any
apparent matching arises merely
by chance. So what are the odds
that it did arise by chance?

Name another person in English or
any other history that these words
fit as well. Oh -- you can't -- what
a surprise! So let's say that your
inability (and that of every other
Strat and quasi-Strat in the world)
gives us odds here of 1,000 to one.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
The decline of 'faire from faire' refers mainly to
the deterioration of the royal marriage.
Why. And how does that fit your narrative?
Does the line fit the declining
relationship between Mary QS and
Darnley in 1565/6 ?

You MUST say that it does not,
OR -- insofar as it does -- that any
apparent matching arises merely
by chance. So what are the odds
that it did arise by chance?

Name another person in English or
any other history that these words
fit as well. Oh -- you can't -- what
a surprise! So let's say that your
inability (and that of every other
Strat and quasi-Strat in the world)
gives us odds here of 1,000 to one.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Can you explicate this line, rather than just float
vague opinions about it?
There is nothing hard to understand
about this line nor personal relationships
of which it makes fun. A very roughly
equivalent sonnet today might go on
about Tiger Woods and his relationship
with his wife.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Botj Mary and Darnley were known for their striking
beauty. ("In these portraits Darnley appears at
first sight like a young god, with his golden hair,
his perfectly shaped face with its short straight
nose, the neat oval chin . ." -- op. cit. page 220.)
It would also refer to the erosion of beauty with
age and illness, with particular reference to that
of Darnley, Mary and Elizabeth.
There may be other allusions as well, with a
pun on 'Ver' being likely; a 'Venus & Adonis'
relationship (of some sort) between Oxford
and the Queen is likely.
No effective poet is going to clutter a poem with
the multitude of incongruous images you think
this one does.
Yeah, yeah. A breach of 'tone'.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Both Mary and Darnley were known for their
addiction to card-playing and gambling -- as
was not uncommon among courtiers of the
day. 'Chance' or 'hazard' was a common card
game played by courtiers. The poet is
suggesting that a major reason for the decline
in the marriage was Darnley's generally
dissolute behaviour, particularly during
Mary's pregnancy.
Another reason for the decline was 'natures
changing course' -- where 'nature' is Mary (or
Elizabeth, or women generally). 'Untrimmed'
alludes viciously to the knife used to 'trim'
Riccio. (He had ~60 stab wounds, the fatal
ones probably from Darnley's dagger, wielded
by a Douglas relation.)
Fair things decline due to gambling, Mary's
changeableness, which trims Riccio?
Make an effort to read.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
But the poem is saying every fair sometimes
declines; it is not alluding to any particular fair.
And, since you say that is so, it
must be true?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'Untrimmed' is also IMO used in a political
sense (even if the OED's first report in this
sense is 1682). OED 5 'trimmer' = 'one who
inclines to each of two opposite sides as
interest dictates'. Darnley seemed to exist
by 'trimming', and Mary had shown plenty of
devious 'trimming' in order to escape from her
captors.
If you are a trimmer, you don't become
"untrimmed." The linguistics are wrong.
The use here would be ironic.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'Untrimmed' also had a bawdy sense. 'To
trim' was to deflower or possess a woman.
Right: cram some bawdry into it whether it fits in
any way or not. Some poets, you should know,
though favor keeping focus.
Can you imagine a modern American
poet in the Elizabethan court?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
AARON (TA V.1.89) . . .
'Twas her two sons that murder'd Bassianus;
They cut thy sister's tongue and ravish'd her
And cut her hands and trimm'd her as thou saw'st.
LUCIUS O detestable villain! call'st thou that trimming?
AARON Why, she was wash'd and cut and trimm'd, and 'twas
Trim sport for them that had the doing of it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
"Trimmed" in one, and "untrimmed" in the other.
Sounds to me (aside from one of Art's lunatic
word-games) like the fairs of line 7 are given
their virginity in line 8, untrimming having to be
the oppositre of trimming (for users of English).
A yank at the court of King Arthur.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The poet is also alluding to Elizabeth's
behaviour since coming to the throne -- of
turning down numerous proposals of marriage.
He is, as ever, warning of the danger of this
conduct -- faire England will decline its
'untrimmed' faire queen.
This interpretation would work if you could show
the poem was to Elizabeth, and that line 7
referred to her and not to Mary. You don't spell
out your narrative, though, so we can't know
which it does, and how.
You seem to accept that this line
could fit Elizabeth. That must be
(according to you) entirely by chance.
So name another person in English
history whom it would also have fit.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
The sestet focuses more on the English
Queen, but with allusions to Scotland, as
in 'fade' which was a Scottish form of 'feud'
at the time (see OED). States and monarchies
did not fade away; but they were destroyed
by feuds.
'Eternal' had another sense: a derogatory one
(which it still retains) for a period of time that
has lasted much longer than it should. Here
Oxford is being sarcastic. He shared the
common feeling that the duration of Elizabeth's
'summer' had become unconscionable. Mary's
pregnancy had emphasised the lack of
seriousness in Elizabeth's conduct in the
1560s, in particular the slow, reluctant manner
in which she 'sought' a husband.
If he thought her summer too long, why did he
say it would not fade? Oh, yes, sarcasm. If the
poem says anything you don't think it should, it
proves sarcasm is going on, even though there's
no warning of it, no set-up.
And you'd need a warning -- perhaps
a distinct font for sarcasm and another
one irony?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
'Owe' also meant 'own' -- and our poet must
necessarily pun on it. The 'faire' that Elizabeth
both owned and owed was her virginity -- and
through that -- her realm. The poet is implying
that her continued possession of former will
destroy that of the latter. She owed England
duties -- which she was not performing.
Right. Assume the line means the opposite of
what it says do to sarcasm. the problem with
that is that you can make it say anything you
want it to that way.
Nope. You can only apply the line to
a tiny number of people in a tiny
number of situations -- whether you
read it with or without sarcasm.
I have given you a reading that applies
to Elizabeth in 1566. State some other
person at some other time to whom
such words could reasonably apply
-- with or without the sarcasm.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I could say the poem is in
praise of Mary, in which case line 2 is
sarcastically saying Elizabeth is the lovelier of
the two, which wasn't true. Etc.
According to you -- and the theory
you must necessarily espouse -- the
entire Sonnet could just as well have
been addressed to (say) Mary at any
time (by say, Darnley -- who was, in
fact, an excellent poet). So tell us
how Line 10 could have been applied
to Mary in early 1566.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
There is a reflection back to the dreadful
events in Scotland. The poet hopes that his
own queen will never see violent death
visited on her favourites in her presence.
What does that have to do with your narrative to
this point? And why does it have to mean just
that rather than any of a hundred other things it
could easily mean--if we ignore the fact that it
obviously only means exactly what it says, that
the addressee will not enter the country that
others who die do--for a reason we'll soon be
told.
Does it -- or does it not -- fit my
scenario for this Sonnet?

You MUST say that it does not,
OR -- insofar as it does -- that any
apparent matching arises merely
by chance. So what are the odds
that it did arise by chance?

Name another person in English or
any other history that these words
fit as well. Oh -- you can't -- what
a surprise! So let's say that your
inability (and that of every other
Strat and quasi-Strat in the world)
gives us odds here of 1,000 to one.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The line hints at the bawdy sense of 'small
death' (orgasm); i.e. the Queen will not
enjoy this, if she is relying on poetry for her
immortality.
There is no sane reason to believe there's
anything bawdy about this line.
Your Victorian ancestors would have
thoroughly approved of your attitude.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
These lines have a scolding tone (which
became more strident in sonnets 1-17,
written a few years later).
It's a VERY long time since I believed
that there was any unity in the 1-17
sequence. God, how dumb I used to
be! Somehow I actually believed that
the 'scholars' had got something right.
How stupid can a person get?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Like the rest of
the nation, he desperately wanted her to
marry and have an heir, and grow in 'loins'
and in family lines of descent, rather than
just in lines of poetry. 'Eternal' is again
used ambiguously.
Why not give us your word for word explication?
Ambiguity.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
The two 'long's of the couplet pun on the
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
The line again alludes to the Riccio murder --
with 'breathe' being partly ironic, or used in
the sense of 'breathe out' (through multiple
stab wounds)
This is totally insane. "So long couple as men
can breathe out through Riccio's multiple stab
wounds or eyes can see?"
It is (ambiguously) ironic. The poet
is saying that men will never change;
they will always be violent and
murderous, and that his monarch
should never relax her vigilance.
AND that it would be much safer to
marry and have an heir.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and/or OED 16: 'to lance [a vein]
so as to give blood'. The poet believes that
more deaths likely to follow (including that
of Darnley?) in the desperate confusion of
Scottish politics, created largely by Mary's
intemperate decision to marry him. The future
is uncertain: 'so long . . as eyes can see'.
There is probably a pun on 'eyes/Ays', with
(Och) 'Ays' = Scotsmen.
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
I am missing something in the final line or
in the couplet.
I did find it later.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
However, the scolding tone
continues. Is immortal life in poetry all she
wants -- even if she assumes that she can
trust the poet's promises?
The first line of the couplet may allude to the
Scottish king; the second to its queen. The
poet expects her to survive; she is the
(undeclared) apparent heir. So long as she
lives, Elizabeth's throne is safe. (The English
would never remove Elizabeth while Mary
was next in line.) In another sense, Mary
was carrying a child. That 'life' would, in due
course, succeed Elizabeth.
NOTE on "The Queen of Hearts"
I believe that it is quite probable that the
"The Queen of Hearts baked some tarts
All on a Summer's day . . "
came from the events of the second half
of 1565, and that it is the poet's source of
"a Summer's day".
There's no reason to believe "a summer's day"
came from the nursery rhyme. So the sonnet
and the rhyme had the same phrase, so what?
Could the nursery rhyme be based on
Mary QS, Riccio and Darnley? Or
do you reject that possibility? If so,
on what grounds?

Could the Sonnet be based on Mary
QS, Riccio and Darnley? Or do you
reject that possibility? If so, on what
grounds?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I'm ending here, for now. I can't say what's
wrong with your explication until you give one,
You want poetry to be simple, and have
a simple explication. Sorry, the world
(at least the Elizabethan world) was
not like that.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Paul. What I can say is that your various
thoughts about the meaning of the lines are
worthless unless you can show in detail how
what the poem says indicates your meaning.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,


Paul.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-09 12:35:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
This is one of Paul Crowley's posts about Sonnet 18
This is an ancient post, made at an early
stage in my investigation of Sonnet 18.
Among a great deal omitted, it does not
have the one point to which you love
to object -- my reading of  "Summer's
day" -- with 'Somer' being Darnley and
his 'day' being the Cockney 'die'.
That came later and was, in fact, far
from crucial to my reading.  However
it is a striking image and (as in your
case) will be the first thing to attract
pathetic misdirected derision from
Strats and quasi-Strats.
(In retrospect, it seems odd how it
took me so long to see it.  But then we
should never be surprised at stupidity.)
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
that he
says I never presented an argument against.
I, of course, have, many times, but Paul refuses to accept that
I have.  Either I can't quickly give him a pertinent URL or I
give him one containing something I think is an argument
but he doesn't, and he of course gets to decide.
Anyway, I'm away from home without much to do today
but able to get on the Internet, so I thought I'd revisit Paul's
truly insane "exegesis" of Sonnet 18, a a little at a time..
Do it on my current version, which
I will post separately.
And which I have a copy of at home but not here which I got before
you removed it from HLAS.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1.   Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5.   Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6.   And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7.   And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9.   But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10.  Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11.  Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12.  When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13.      So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14.      So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
It is not too difficult to guess to whom the
phrase 'Summers day' refers -- once we know
that the addressee of the sonnet was Queen
Elizabeth, and to whom she was, at one stage
in her reign, constantly compared.
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
But there is no indication whatever that this sonnet is
addressed to Queen Elizabeth.
Naturally you want me to prove every aspect
of my exegesis before I state any part of it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
There is, in fact, no clue whatever as to whom
this sonnet was addressed, nor even the sex of
that person.
The Sonnet is about a 'comparison'.
The most commonly made one in
that era was between the two most
remarkable and powerful females on
the island.  Note how acutely the
phrasing of the first line fits that
situation.  This Sonnet has probably
be paraphrased a hundred million
times. In nearly all cases, those
paraphrases would have failed to get
the right tone. The poet does not ask
"Can I compare thee . . .?" nor
"Should I compare thee . . .?" nor
"May I compare thee . . .?" nor
"Let me compare thee . . .?" nor
"Will I compare thee . . .?" nor
"Could I compare thee . . .?" nor
"Say I compare thee . . .?".
Each of those questions would not
fit -- since each implies varying
degrees of impertinence,
We can see in this Sonnet that two
entities are compared for 'beauty', and
for other virtues, and that the 'eternal
Sommer' of one of them matters
immensely.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
It is part of a sequence, so if we want to guess
whom it's to, we could reasonably see if there's
a clue in the sonnets preceding it.  Those, to
every sane person who reads them, are
addressed to a young man, not a woman, so not
to Queen Elizabeth.
These are the 'sane people' who believe
that the son of illiterates, brought up in
an illiterate household, would write
sonnets for living -- addressed to the
scion of a noble family who paid the
low-class poet to write homosexual love
poetry to him to persuade him to marry
(someone, anyone) so that he could
pass on his beauty before he lost it.
Do you really think such people are sane?
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Recent events had shown that the quality
Mary, Queen of Scots, most conspicuously
lacked was temperance.   The poet may have
been referring back to elaborate plans for a
meeting between the two queens about four
Queen Elizabeth was known to throw tantrums
No more than most rulers -- but the
point is that she never (or very rarely)
acted upon them.
.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Not everyone would deem her particularly
temperate.
Most historians do, in fact, come to that
judgement.  Name some intemperate
actions on her part.
In any case, we are talking about what
her poet would be likely to say to her
around 1566.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Again, though, the sonneteer might
have.  There is nothing to indicate that Mary is
in the poem, I should add.  Crowley just sticks
her in.
Name two other figures in history (at
any time, in any culture) who were the
subject of so many comparisons.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"In London the prospect of the encounter was considered
sufficiently certain for the actual masques to be devised which
were to entertain the two queens, the chosen allegorical theme
being the punishment of False Report and Discord by Jupiter
at the request of Prudence and Temperance. The detailed and
long-winded plans for the masques -- three nights of them -- were
vetted personally by Cecil and much courtly care was exercised
in the delicate task of balancing the allegorical compliments to
both royal ladies . . "  (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS* page 168)
Lots of masques, plays, poems, romance,
pamphlets, sermons, etc. were about prudence
and temperance.
So many that you can list at least one
-- or even two.
Let's see the list.
IOW -- you are bullshitting, and you
know it.
Right. The idea that ANY masque but the one you name
could have anything to do with prudence and temperance
is absurd.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
There's no reason whatever to claim any
particular one of them had anything to do with
this sonnet.
There is FAR more reason to associate
this masque with this Sonnet than there
is to associate the shipwreck on
Bermuda with 'The Tempest'. (A reader
at the time could hardly fail to link these
two, whereas a playgoer in 1611 would
not know what sense to make of 'The
Tempest' IF (huge IF) it had been put
on soon after that shipwreck.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Note that so far Crowley has provided no word
for word explication of the poem.
Only dolts would expect one
Okay, discussion at an end. As I just wrote in the post
I was writing while your were posting this and your next
post, I predicted that you would claim one need not explicate
a poem in order to show what it is about. You only need to
declare in vague terms what it is about, and be Paul
Crowley and therefore able to state that you're right about
the poem regardless of what anyone else thinks.

.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
This sonnet was written around April 1566
after the first 'rough patch' endured by Mary
-- the murder of David Riccio (on 9 March)
by her husband, King Henry (Darnley), Lord
Ruthven and several more of the Protestant
Lot os people experience "rough patches."  It is
ridiculously arbitrary to maintain that the word,
"rough," in this context has anything to do with
any particular rough patch.
Would that particular 'rough patch' have
been of interest to the English court
around April 1566?  Would they have
gossiped about it?   Does it -- or does
it not -- fit my scenario for this Sonnet?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
It is clearly used merely to indicate that a
summer day is not necessarily wholly serene.
Half-wit.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
" . . a few minutes later there was a far more astonishing apparition
up the staircase -- Patrick Lord Ruthven, with a steel cap on, and
with his armour showing through his gown, burning-eyed and pale
from the illness of which he was generally thought to be dying on
his sick-bed in a house close to Holyrood. So amazing was his
emergence at the queen's supper party, that the first reaction of
those present was that he was actually delirious, and had somehow
felt himself pursued, in his fever, by the spectre of one of his
victims.
[ as in Macbeth -- PC ]  Ruthven -- who did in fact die three months
after these events took place -- was a highly unsavoury character,
popularly supposed to be a warlock or male witch, or at any rate in
Knox's phrase to 'use enchantment'.  However, his first words left the
queen in no doubt as to what had brought this death's head to her
feast. 'Let it please your Majesty,' said Ruthven, 'that yonder man
David come forth of your privy-chamber where he hath been overlong.'
Mary replied with astonishment that Riccio was there at her own royal
wish, and asked Ruthven whether he had taken leave of his senses. . ."
 (op. cit. page 252.)
So what?
Does it -- or does it not -- fit my
scenario for this Sonnet?
You MUST say that it does not,
OR -- insofar as it does -- that any
apparent matching arises merely
by chance.  So what are the odds
that it did arise by chance?
It does not sanely fit. The odds that it arose
by chance are 86 to 1 in favor. Every poem
has lots of words that it shares with many
other texts. I have little access to studies of
monomaniacs but KNOW whether you want
to accept me as knowing that they have
NO TROUBLE AT ALL finding connections
between any text and what they are monomaniacs
about. Read Art's crap, for instance. Every instance
of "ever" or "every" or "never" is a magic pointer to
E. Ver(e).
Post by Paul Crowley
Name another event in English or
any other history that these words
fit as well.  Oh -- you can't -- what
a surprise!  So let's say that your
inability (and that of every other
Strat and quasi-Strat in the world)
gives us odds here of 10,000 to one.
Rough windes fits Hurrican Charlie which devastated
my home several years ago. This poem predicted that.
Read our Sat Goober on Nostradamus, or others.
Hundreds of wacks can find him telling us about any
current event you want to name.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'All too short a date' refers to the sudden end
of David Riccio in both the obvious sense and
in other ways.
Your narrative to this point seems to be saying
that Elizabeth is more temperate than Mary,
whose get banged by Ruthven  What does "the
sudden end" of Riccio have to do with this.
Mary's "date" with her 'date' Riccio
(a short and ugly Italian) was brought
short by his violent death.  Darnley's
'lease/leash proved too short.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
 His shortness of stature and his
ugliness were well-known.  Mary was remarkably
tall to those times, and Darnley was even taller.)
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
A broader sense of line 4 may also be
addressed to Elizabeth.  If she was to have an
heir of her body, she needed to get on with it.
So, paraphrase the line.  I have no idea what you're
saying it means for you, so I can't critique it, except to
say that pulling words out of your rigidniplex concerning
Elizabeth and Mary whenever there's any kind of
possible connection to a word in the line in not
responsible
...
I won't read more.

Way back in 2003 the Knave tried to make sense of your
"interpretation" of the sonnet, and challenged you to tell
him what he got wrong. You never replied to him.

I wonder in Hank W. did as poorly with his interpretation.
Anyone know? I've read some of what he's written about
the sonnets but can't remember any of it and don't have
time to check.

--Bob
Paul Crowley
2010-04-09 22:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
Recent events had shown that the quality
Mary, Queen of Scots, most conspicuously
lacked was temperance. The poet may have
been referring back to elaborate plans for a
meeting between the two queens about four
Queen Elizabeth was known to throw tantrums
No more than most rulers -- but the
point is that she never (or very rarely)
acted upon them.
No counter-example provided.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Not everyone would deem her particularly
temperate.
Most historians do, in fact, come to that
judgement. Name some intemperate
actions on her part.
No intemperate actions named.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Again, though, the sonneteer might
have. There is nothing to indicate that Mary is
in the poem, I should add. Crowley just sticks
her in.
Name two other figures in history (at
any time, in any culture) who were the
subject of so many comparisons.
No such figures indicated -- not in
any history or culture.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"In London the prospect of the encounter was considered
sufficiently certain for the actual masques to be devised which
were to entertain the two queens, the chosen allegorical theme
being the punishment of False Report and Discord by Jupiter
at the request of Prudence and Temperance. The detailed and
long-winded plans for the masques -- three nights of them -- were
vetted personally by Cecil and much courtly care was exercised
in the delicate task of balancing the allegorical compliments to
both royal ladies . . " (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS* page 168)
Lots of masques, plays, poems, romance,
pamphlets, sermons, etc. were about prudence
and temperance.
So many that you can list at least one
-- or even two.
Let's see the list.
IOW -- you are bullshitting, and you
know it.
Right. The idea that ANY masque but the one you
name could have anything to do with prudence and
temperance is absurd.
Did I say that? HOWEVER, we have
here an allegory for the two queens --
dated no more than two years earlier
-- in which Prudence and Temperance
ask Jupiter to to punish False Report
and Discord.

Which of them do you think was
'Temperance'? And which 'Prudence'?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
There's no reason whatever to claim any
particular one of them had anything to do with
this sonnet.
There is FAR more reason to associate
this masque with this Sonnet than there
is to associate the shipwreck on
Bermuda with 'The Tempest'. (A reader
at the time could hardly fail to link these
two, whereas a playgoer in 1611 would
not know what sense to make of 'The
Tempest' IF (huge IF) it had been put
on soon after that shipwreck.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Note that so far Crowley has provided no word
for word explication of the poem.
Note (a) the dodge -- you cannot deny
the close connection of 'Temperance'
to my date for this Sonnet' and
(b) the fake allegation.

I have never said that I would or should
provide a 'word-for-word explication'.
As you well know, I regard anyone
who would ask for such a thing as
demonstrating his profound ignorance
of all art, and especially poetry.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Only dolts would expect one
Okay, discussion at an end. As I just wrote in the
post I was writing while your were posting this and
your next post, I predicted that you would claim
one need not explicate a poem in order to show
what it is about.
Not in any terms you would accept.
Can you imagine a word-by-word
explication of Hamlet, or of any other
literary work of quality? Only a total
dolt, who knew nothing about literature
and especially poetry would think it
reasonable to request one for a Shake-
speare sonnet.

Not even Strats provide them -- and
they know absolutely nothing about
the Sonnets.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds
of May,
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Name another event in English or
any other history that these words
fit as well. Oh -- you can't -- what
a surprise! So let's say that your
inability (and that of every other
Strat and quasi-Strat in the world)
gives us odds here of 10,000 to one.
Rough windes fits Hurrican Charlie which
devastated my home several years ago. This
poem predicted that.
So your house (and you) are the
'darling buds of May'? And you
and Charlie had a sexual encounter,
entangling your limbs together?

Did the earth move?
[..]


Paul.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-09 20:16:26 UTC
Permalink
I'm idle again so returning to this, which is idiotic of me, but . . .
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1.   Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5.   Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6.   And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7.   And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9.   But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10.  Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11.  Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12.  When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13.      So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14.      So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
It is not too difficult to guess to whom the
phrase 'Summers day' refers -- once we know
that the addressee of the sonnet was Queen
Elizabeth, and to whom she was, at one stage
in her reign, constantly compared.
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
But there is no indication whatever that this sonnet is
addressed to Queen Elizabeth.
Naturally you want me to prove every aspect
of my exegesis before I state any part of it.
Actually, I merely require you at some point to
present evidence that the sonnet is to Elizabeth.
Naturally, you have to claim that I am asking you
to do something very difficult--almost as difficult
as the chores you so frequently ask me to carry
out, like running down citations of material I know
exist but didn't make a list of while exposed to it
(because I didn't know then I'd need it in order
to make a point against a genius as great as you).
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
There is, in fact, no clue whatever as to whom
this sonnet was addressed, nor even the sex of
that person.
The Sonnet is about a 'comparison'.
The most commonly made one in
that era was between the two most
remarkable and powerful females on
the island.  Note how acutely the
phrasing of the first line fits that
situation.  This Sonnet has probably
be paraphrased a hundred million
times. In nearly all cases, those
paraphrases would have failed to get
the right tone. The poet does not ask
"Can I compare thee . . .?" nor
"Should I compare thee . . .?" nor
"May I compare thee . . .?" nor
"Let me compare thee . . .?" nor
"Will I compare thee . . .?" nor
"Could I compare thee . . .?" nor
"Say I compare thee . . .?".
It is a simple comparison between the addressee and a
summer's day. You haven't shown that it is anything else,
nor do you make an intelligent point about the tone, which
is extremely standard English--"shall" being standard rather
than "will" for asking permission. And even if you were right
about how perfect the tone is for addressing a queen, it
would be awfully weak as evidence that was what he was
doing rather than simply addressing someone important to
him.
Post by Paul Crowley
Each of those questions would not
fit -- since each implies varying
degrees of impertinence,
they show many more differences than simply
differences in impertinence.
Post by Paul Crowley
We can see in this Sonnet that two
entities are compared for 'beauty', and
for other virtues,
True.
Post by Paul Crowley
and that the 'eternal
Sommer' of one of them matters
immensely.
That may be overstating it.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
It is part of a sequence, so if we want to guess
whom it's to, we could reasonably see if there's
a clue in the sonnets preceding it.  Those, to
every sane person who reads them, are
addressed to a young man, not a woman, so not
to Queen Elizabeth.
These are the 'sane people' who believe
that the son of illiterates, brought up in
an illiterate household, would write
sonnets for living --
They also include wacks who believe Oxford or
some other noble wrote the sonnets.
Post by Paul Crowley
addressed to the
scion of a noble family who paid the
low-class poet to write homosexual love
poetry to him to persuade him to marry
(someone, anyone) so that he could
pass on his beauty before he lost it.
You keep saying this but it is not true. SOME
of them may have the beliefs you describe but
the majority don't. What almost all of them
believe is just this, and you lie every time you say
different:

The poems were written to a young man in an
attempt to persuade him to marry so that he
could pass his (and his mother's) beauty on to
another generation.

As for who the addressee was and why the poet
wrote the sonnets there are many many different
theories. ALL the most intelligent scholars say
we DON'T know the answers to these two
questions, and CAN'T know the answers unless
without more data.

To say there's only one, the one you describe,
is like saying all Oxfordians believe Oxford was the son
of Elizabeth, and Southampton the son of Oxford and
Elizabeth.
Post by Paul Crowley
Do you really think such people are sane?
Of course, they're sane--because their theories
are backed by the direct meanings of words in
the sonnets.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Recent events had shown that the quality
Mary, Queen of Scots, most conspicuously
lacked was temperance.   The poet may have
been referring back to elaborate plans for a
meeting between the two queens about four
Queen Elizabeth was known to throw tantrums
No more than most rulers -- but the
point is that she never (or very rarely)
acted upon them.
.
Nevertheless, I don't know that many knowledgeable people
would call her particularly temperate, although not ruinously
intemperate. Again, it's subjective.

I have to get off the computer now. Will return later.

--Bob
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-10 00:52:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to the
To repeat my last poets, then continue from where I had to stop
( to let my grand-nephew get on Nickelodean for a while).
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
It is not too difficult to guess to whom the
phrase 'Summers day' refers -- once we know
that the addressee of the sonnet was Queen
Elizabeth, and to whom she was, at one stage
in her reign, constantly compared.
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
But there is no indication whatever that this sonnet is
addressed to Queen Elizabeth.
Naturally you want me to prove every aspect
of my exegesis before I state any part of it.
Actually, I merely require you at some point to
present evidence that the sonnet is to Elizabeth.
Naturally, you have to claim that I am asking you
to do something very difficult--almost as difficult
as the chores you so frequently ask me to carry
out, like running down citations of material I know
exist but didn't make a list of while exposed to it
(because I didn't know then I'd need it in order
to make a point against a genius as great as you).
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
There is, in fact, no clue whatever as to whom
this sonnet was addressed, nor even the sex of
that person.
The Sonnet is about a 'comparison'.
The most commonly made one in
that era was between the two most
remarkable and powerful females on
the island. Note how acutely the
phrasing of the first line fits that
situation. This Sonnet has probably
be paraphrased a hundred million
times. In nearly all cases, those
paraphrases would have failed to get
the right tone. The poet does not ask
"Can I compare thee . . .?" nor
"Should I compare thee . . .?" nor
"May I compare thee . . .?" nor
"Let me compare thee . . .?" nor
"Will I compare thee . . .?" nor
"Could I compare thee . . .?" nor
"Say I compare thee . . .?".
It is a simple comparison between the addressee and a
summer's day. You haven't shown that it is anything else,
nor do you make an intelligent point about the tone, which
is extremely standard English--"shall" being standard rather
than "will" for asking permission. And even if you were right
about how perfect the tone is for addressing a queen, it
would be awfully weak as evidence that was what he was
doing rather than simply addressing someone important to
him.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Each of those questions would not
fit -- since each implies varying
degrees of impertinence,
they show many more differences than simply
differences in impertinence.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
We can see in this Sonnet that two
entities are compared for 'beauty', and
for other virtues,
True.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
and that the 'eternal
Sommer' of one of them matters
immensely.
That may be overstating it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
It is part of a sequence, so if we want to guess
whom it's to, we could reasonably see if there's
a clue in the sonnets preceding it. Those, to
every sane person who reads them, are
addressed to a young man, not a woman, so not
to Queen Elizabeth.
These are the 'sane people' who believe
that the son of illiterates, brought up in
an illiterate household, would write
sonnets for living --
They also include wacks who believe Oxford or
some other noble wrote the sonnets.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
addressed to the
scion of a noble family who paid the
low-class poet to write homosexual love
poetry to him to persuade him to marry
(someone, anyone) so that he could
pass on his beauty before he lost it.
You keep saying this but it is not true. SOME
of them may have the beliefs you describe but
the majority don't. What almost all of them
believe is just this, and you lie every time you say
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The poems were written to a young man in an
attempt to persuade him to marry so that he
could pass his (and his mother's) beauty on to
another generation.
As for who the addressee was and why the poet
wrote the sonnets there are many many different
theories. ALL the most intelligent scholars say
we DON'T know the answers to these two
questions, and CAN'T know the answers unless
without more data.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
To say there's only one, the one you describe,
is like saying all Oxfordians believe Oxford was the son
of Elizabeth, and Southampton the son of Oxford and
Elizabeth.
Post by Paul Crowley
Do you really think such people are sane?
Of course, they're sane--because their theories
are backed by the direct meanings of words in
the sonnets.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Recent events had shown that the quality
Mary, Queen of Scots, most conspicuously
lacked was temperance. The poet may have
been referring back to elaborate plans for a
meeting between the two queens about four
Queen Elizabeth was known to throw tantrums
No more than most rulers -- but the
point is that she never (or very rarely)
acted upon them.
.
Nevertheless, I don't know that many knowledgeable people
would call her particularly temperate, although not ruinously
intemperate. Again, it's subjective. Certainly your claim that
Elizabeth was decidedly more temperate than Mary is
not enough to support your belief that the first line compares the
two--
instead of ONLY comparing the addressee with a summer's day.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Not everyone would deem her particularly
temperate.
Most historians do, in fact, come to that
judgement.  Name some intemperate
actions on her part.
You continually challenge me to, in effect, devote a large
portion of my spare time toward researching your
subject area. I refuse to do so. You say Elizabeth was
temperate: Show that by quoting historians--and presenting
me with some indication that you haven't ignored historians
with an opposite view. I would say her whole handling of
Essex was intemperate.

In the end it doesn't matter. Lots of people were temperate.
It's absurd to claim that because Elizabeth was, that
the line was about her.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
In any case, we are talking about what
her poet would be likely to say to her
around 1566.
You have no evidence that the poem was written then,
or about anything of that time, or that--if it were written
then--that it was about Elizabeth. I, however, have a
great deal of evidence that it was not written then since
its known author was only two, then.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Again, though, the sonneteer might
have.  There is nothing to indicate that Mary is
in the poem, I should add.  Crowley just sticks
her in.
Name two other figures in history (at
any time, in any culture) who were the
subject of so many comparisons.
Please draft an outline of how I should research this
idiotic question. Before I do, though, let me know
what possible difference that makes? If I wrote a poem
about an unnamed war, would you determine what war
it was be determining what war has been most written
about?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"In London the prospect of the encounter was considered
sufficiently certain for the actual masques to be devised which
were to entertain the two queens, the chosen allegorical theme
being the punishment of False Report and Discord by Jupiter
at the request of Prudence and Temperance. The detailed and
long-winded plans for the masques -- three nights of them -- were
vetted personally by Cecil and much courtly care was exercised
in the delicate task of balancing the allegorical compliments to
both royal ladies . . "  (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS* page 168)
Lots of masques, plays, poems, romance,
pamphlets, sermons, etc. were about prudence
and temperance.
So many that you can list at least one
-- or even two.
So many that I can remember that there many--regardless of the
fact that, having a good brain, I never committed their names to
memory.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Let's see the list.
IOW -- you are bullshitting, and you
know it.
So, you really think this masque you name is
the only literary work of the time or earlier that
was about prudence and temperance?

Even if so, and it's absurd to accept that, it doesn't
mean that this sonnet had anything to do with it. There
is no evidence it did, unless you think "our poet" couldn't
of thought of making his comparison without exposure to
the masque.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
There's no reason whatever to claim any
particular one of them had anything to do with
this sonnet.
There is FAR more reason to associate
this masque with this Sonnet than there
is to associate the shipwreck on
Bermuda with 'The Tempest'. (A reader
at the time could hardly fail to link these
two, whereas a playgoer in 1611 would
not know what sense to make of 'The
Tempest' IF (huge IF) it had been put
on soon after that shipwreck.
There were all kinds of pamphlets about the
Bermuda shipwreck at the time. We have
good reason to believe the Tempest was first acted
around 1611, none that the sonnets were written
at anywhere near the time of the masque.
Nor any kind of connection between the two
other than an interest in temperance.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Note that so far Crowley has provided no word
for word explication of the poem.
Only dolts would expect one.
No, Paul, only an insane fanatic would not realize
that you can't say what a line of a poem means
without SHOWING what it means word for word
in an explication. Cherry-picking words that
have vaguely to do with some subject you think
the poem is about but not showing how they fit
with the rest of the words in the poem to say
something coherent about that subject isn't enough.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
This sonnet was written around April 1566
after the first 'rough patch' endured by Mary
-- the murder of David Riccio (on 9 March)
by her husband, King Henry (Darnley), Lord
Ruthven and several more of the Protestant
Insane. "Rough" is a common word. It could be connected
to almost any human being, since just about all human
beings go through rough times. I could as easily say "shake"
connects to the life of Will Shakespeare and makes the
sonnet's secondary meaning about his authorship of it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Lot of people experience "rough patches."  It is
ridiculously arbitrary to maintain that the word,
"rough," in this context has anything to do with
any particular rough patch.
Would that particular 'rough patch' have
been of interest to the English court
around April 1566?
It is insane arbitrarily to claim that sonnet
was written in 1566, something you have no evidence
for, or that it had to be of interest to ANY English
court.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Would they have
gossiped about it?   Does it -- or does
it not -- fit my scenario for this Sonnet?
It fits your scenario, but it fits hundreds of
other scenarios, and fails to fit your scenario in
any kind of detail. Also: lots of things in the sonnet
do not fit your scenario. And it fits MY scenario,
that the poem has no secondary meaning, too,
and NOTHING in the poem fails to fit that scenario.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
It is clearly used merely to indicate that a
summer day is not necessarily wholly serene.
Half-wit.
True--even a halfwit would know that you need
some kind of evidence to claim an interpretation
for a line that has nothing to do with its literal meaning.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
" . . a few minutes later there was a far more astonishing apparition
up the staircase -- Patrick Lord Ruthven, with a steel cap on, and
with his armour showing through his gown, burning-eyed and pale
from the illness of which he was generally thought to be dying on
his sick-bed in a house close to Holyrood. So amazing was his
emergence at the queen's supper party, that the first reaction of
those present was that he was actually delirious, and had somehow
felt himself pursued, in his fever, by the spectre of one of his
victims.
[ as in Macbeth -- PC ]  Ruthven -- who did in fact die three months
after these events took place -- was a highly unsavoury character,
popularly supposed to be a warlock or male witch, or at any rate in
Knox's phrase to 'use enchantment'.  However, his first words left the
queen in no doubt as to what had brought this death's head to her
feast. 'Let it please your Majesty,' said Ruthven, 'that yonder man
David come forth of your privy-chamber where he hath been overlong.'
Mary replied with astonishment that Riccio was there at her own royal
wish, and asked Ruthven whether he had taken leave of his senses. . ."
 (op. cit. page 252.)
So what?
Does it -- or does it not -- fit my
scenario for this Sonnet?
I don't know. How does it fit?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You MUST say that it does not,
OR -- insofar as it does -- that any
apparent matching arises merely
by chance.  So what are the odds
that it did arise by chance?
99.99%
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Name another event in English or
any other history that these words
fit as well.  Oh -- you can't -- what
a surprise!  So let's say that your
inability (and that of every other
Strat and quasi-Strat in the world)
gives us odds here of 10,000 to one.
Sure, I can. The event in history in which some person
was perceived by a poet as being superior in beauty
and disposition to a summer's day.

You simply dogmatically claim the poem had to be
about some historic event but can give no hard
evidence that it was. No words in the poem directly
(or even indirectly) indicate it was, and sonnets
are historically known to by lyrical and not about
historical events usually.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
[..]
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'All too short a date' refers to the sudden end
of David Riccio in both the obvious sense and
in other ways.
You're saying line 4 means "And summer's lease hath
the sudden end of David Riccio." (I'm sure courtiers
would be delighted with such insight.)
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Your narrative to this point seems to be saying
that Elizabeth is more temperate than Mary,
who gets banged by Ruthven  What does "the
sudden end" of Riccio have to do with this.
Mary's "date" with her 'date' Riccio
(a short and ugly Italian) was brought
short by his violent death.  Darnley's
'lease/leash proved too short.
How does the line say that? You have to show it
to convince any sane person it does, Paul. Are you
saying "summer's lease" equals "Mary?" Seems to
me you have to to get the interpretation of the line
you want (i.e., "Mary's date with is short in length--
and is with someone short, who could only be
Riccio, who was short of stature.) But Summer,
according to you, does not elsewhere mean "Mary."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
 His shortness of stature and his
ugliness were well-known.  Mary was remarkably
tall to those times, and Darnley was even taller.)
[..]
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
A broader sense of line 4 may also be
addressed to Elizabeth.  If she was to have an
heir of her body, she needed to get on with it.
Sure, two extra arbitrary meanings based on
your reading characters into the poem for which there is
no direct evidence.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
So, paraphrase the line.  I have no idea what you're
saying it means for you, so I can't critique it, except to
say that pulling words out of your rigidniplex concerning
Elizabeth and Mary whenever there's any kind of
possible connection to a word in the line in not
responsible paraphrasing.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
5.   Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
The 'eye of heaven' is the sun -- a symbol of
royalty.  Here the poet beautifully exploits the
bawdy potential of a 'hot' and a royal 'eye'
opening into a royal 'heaven' -- alluding, of
course, to the intensity of Mary's sexual
passion in her brief marriage with Darnley,
In that case, the poem's speaker is calling Mary
"heaven." How can he then think Elizabeth
superior to her?
He would not have said Elizabeth was
superior to Mary.  They were both royalty
-- and anointed monarchs.
Ah, he is not comparing Mary and Elizabeth and
finding Elizabeth superior. Or does he only find
her more beautiful and temperate, but equal as
a heaven, in which case the heaven that Mary is
is less beautiful and temperate than the heaven
Elizabeth is, which goes against the standard
meaning of heaven as superior in every way to
any other location.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Both are
referred to as 'heaven' (Elizabeth in other
Sonnets -- but it was an Early Modern/
Medieval convention.)
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and the allegations of an affair with Riccio.  'Shines'
may reflect the sense of 'taking a shine' -- even
if  the OED does not record this until 1848.
6.   And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
Line 5 refers to the (Queen in a sexual passion).
There's no reference to "queen" in line 5, nor to
a "king" in line 6.  The two lines are clearly
about the same entity, "summer"--sometimes
his eye is too hot and often is his complexion
dimmed, yet you claim line 5 is about Mary, line
6 about some male king--Darnley?  Hence, you
have one of the two lines wrong.
Lines 5 and 6 are meant to be read in
your way -- BUT they can also be read
in mine, and the poet intended that as
well.  He was exploiting a concept
called 'ambiguity'.  I appreciate that
you are unfamiliar with it.
They are not ambiguous. One doesn't wonder
whether they mean what they say or what
you think they say; one sees that they way what they
say, period. A contradiction is not an ambiguity.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Line 6 refers to the King.  There may be bawdy
allusions here, but "dimm'd" would refer to his
'eclipse' by Riccio, to his bouts of furious anger,
[..]
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
nobles.
You are arbitrarily pinning meanings to words.
Without giving a word for word explication.
Systematic ambiguity does not lend
itself to word-for-word 'explications'.
If, in a sentence of seven words, each
word has two meanings, the total
number of meanings of the sentence
is    2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 128.
No one would write out 128 sentences
detailing each meaning.
Show me a seven-word line with even ten meanings.
You're being absurd, revealing your total ignorance
of poetry. Poets use various devices, including ambiguity,
to extend a single higher meaning, not to put various
meanings into conflict with one another.

Many so-called ambiguous poems have been explicated.
All that needs be done is the pointing out of the ambiguity
and its description and how it alters the full meaning of the
poem.

Yo're the one with no knowledge of ambiguity. For you, it's just
a term you throw out there when the literal meaning of a word
or phrase isn't what you want it to be and you can't call it irony.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Darnley was addressed as 'King Henry' but he
was essentially only a consort.  Even though
he had little interest in administration, he
constantly demanded the 'crown matrimonial'
which would grant him power equal to Mary
while she lived and would have continued
after her death if he survived her. Mary and
the Scottish parliament would not  grant this,
leading to rows about the manner in which
they should sign documents and, in particular,
on the way their images should be presented
on coins.
There's nothing in the line to link it to Darnley.
Or anything but a summer's day.
Does the line fit Darnley -- and his
behaviour and appearance in late
1565 and early 1566 ?
It doesn't matter. (1) Do you really believe the
line wouldn't fit dozens of other people? (2) You
have not shown that the poem has a secondary meaning.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You MUST say that it does not,
OR -- insofar as it does -- that any
apparent matching arises merely
by chance.  So what are the odds
that it did arise by chance?
99.9%
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Name another person in English or
any other history that these words
fit as well.  Oh -- you can't -- what
a surprise!  So let's say that your
inability (and that of every other
Strat and quasi-Strat in the world)
gives us odds here of 1,000 to one.
Paul, of the millions of people in the world at
the time of its composition, how can you believe
it could only fit Darnley? But why should it fit
any particular person? There are only two
people explicitly in the poem, the addressee
and the speaker. There's no good evidence
that anything else in the poem represents
a person.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"Certainly her violent infatuation for Darnley had not survived
the onsets of pregnancy, and she could after all no longer share
[..]
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
preceded that of the queen. "  (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS*
page 240)
The 'dimming of the gold complexion' is
probably also a reference to the dispute
about these images, with the poet thinking
of gold coins.
Hey, maybe he had a gold tooth, too.
Does the line fit Darnley -- and his
behaviour and appearance in late
1565 and early 1566 ?
It may. But that does not mean it was about him.
If the line was about a person, then we might say
that Darnley might be one of ten thousand it could
fit. No, I can't name them, I'm just going by my
knowledge that one in ten persons has a disposition
like you say Darnley had.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You MUST say that it does not,
OR -- insofar as it does -- that any
apparent matching arises merely
by chance.  So what are the odds
that it did arise by chance?
Name another person in English or
any other history that these words
fit as well.  Oh -- you can't -- what
a surprise!  So let's say that your
inability (and that of every other
Strat and quasi-Strat in the world)
gives us odds here of 1,000 to one.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
7.   And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
The decline of 'faire from faire' refers mainly to
the deterioration of the royal marriage.
It could be applied to almost anything since all
things deteriorate.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Why.  And how does that fit your narrative?
Does the line fit the declining
relationship between Mary QS and
Darnley in 1565/6 ?
Sure, but it also fits the destruction of the Spanish Armada
in 1588.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You MUST say that it does not,
OR -- insofar as it does -- that any
apparent matching arises merely
by chance.  So what are the odds
that it did arise by chance?
Name another person in English or
any other history that these words
fit as well.  Oh -- you can't -- what
a surprise!  So let's say that your
inability (and that of every other
Strat and quasi-Strat in the world)
gives us odds here of 1,000 to one.
Post by Paul Crowley
Can you explicate this line, rather than just float
vague opinions about it?
There is nothing hard to understand
about this line nor personal relationships
of which it makes fun.  A very roughly
equivalent sonnet today might go on
about Tiger Woods and his relationship
with his wife.
Your interpretation is simple, but your problem is
that you don't show how the words of the sonnet
results in it.

Bringing Woods into it nicely shows the poverty of
your extra meaning--you really thing a superior poet
would add a National Enquirer story about Mary's wacky
life to a poem to improve it! How about doing what you
always ask me to do and citing a poem that does
what you think this one does.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Both Mary and Darnley were known for their striking>
beauty. ("In these portraits Darnley appears at
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
first sight like a young god, with his golden hair,
his perfectly shaped face with its short straight
nose, the neat oval chin . ." -- op. cit. page 220.)
It would also refer to the erosion of beauty with
age and illness, with particular reference to that
of Darnley, Mary and Elizabeth.
There may be other allusions as well, with a
pun on 'Ver' being likely;  a 'Venus & Adonis'
relationship (of some sort) between Oxford
and the Queen is likely.
Sure: "E. Ver (Lord Oxford) fair from fair sometime declines"
works marvelously.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
No effective poet is going to clutter a poem with
the multitude of incongruous images you think
this one does.
Yeah, yeah.  A breach of 'tone'.
Not only that, but too much going on. Loss of focus.
By the way, do you not believe a poet has any
responsbibility to maintain some tone? Do
you really consider a poem's decorum something
only I and other unenlightened Philistines believe in?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Both Mary and Darnley were known for their
addiction to card-playing and gambling -- as
was not uncommon among courtiers of the
day.  'Chance' or 'hazard' was a common card
game played by courtiers.   The poet is
suggesting that a major reason for the decline
in the marriage was Darnley's generally
dissolute behaviour, particularly during
Mary's pregnancy.
Another reason for the decline was 'natures
changing course' -- where 'nature' is Mary (or
Elizabeth, or women generally).  'Untrimmed'
alludes viciously to the knife used to 'trim'
Riccio.  (He had ~60 stab wounds, the fatal
ones probably from Darnley's dagger, wielded
by a Douglas relation.)
Fair things decline due to gambling, Mary's
changeableness, which trims Riccio?
Make an effort to read.
Correct me if I have you wrong.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
But the poem is saying every fair sometimes
declines; it is not alluding to any particular fair.
And, since you say that is so, it
must be true?
No, Paul, it is only true if no one refute it. You
haven't.

Every fair is more than one fair, so how can it
allude to a particular fair?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'Untrimmed' is also IMO used in a political
sense (even if the OED's first report in this
sense is 1682). OED 5 'trimmer' = 'one who
inclines to each of two opposite sides as
interest dictates'.  Darnley seemed to exist
by 'trimming', and Mary had shown plenty of
devious 'trimming' in order to escape from her
captors.
If you are a trimmer, you don't become
"untrimmed." The linguistics are wrong.
The use here would be ironic.
Right, if the literal meaning of a words doesn't work, it
must be intended ironically (unless it's an ambiguity).
You ever hear of unfalsifiability, Paul? Of course, your
problem here, as it is whenever you calim irony, is that
there is no reason to take the line as ironic. No
even medicore poet has a ironic line suddenly appear
in a mainly unironic text with out some sort of signal
warning the reader to look for it, or the use of exaggeration
or something else to mark the irony. This line is
straightforward, not exaggerated. A change in nature, from
warm to cold, for instance, is part of everyone's
normal experience. There's nothing about it to mark
it ironic.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'Untrimmed' also had a bawdy sense.  'To
trim' was to deflower or possess a woman.
Every fair is by chance or nature's changing course
sexually deflowered? But the addressee's fair
we later learn will not be sexually deflowered.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Right: cram some bawdry into it whether it fits in
any way or not.  Some poets, you should know,
though, favor keeping focus.
Can you imagine a modern American
poet in the Elizabethan court?
What on earth do you know about modern American poets?
Or what any poet does? Do you really think maintaining focus
is not a duty of most poets?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
AARON      (TA  V.1.89) . . .
        'Twas her two sons that murder'd Bassianus;
        They cut thy sister's tongue and ravish'd her
        And cut her hands and trimm'd her as thou saw'st.
LUCIUS   O detestable villain! call'st thou that trimming?
AARON   Why, she was wash'd and cut and trimm'd, and 'twas
                    Trim sport for them that had the doing of it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
7.   And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
"Trimmed" in one, and "untrimmed" in the other.
Sounds to me (aside from one of Art's lunatic
word-games) like the fairs of line 7 are given
their virginity in line 8, untrimming having to be
the oppositre of trimming (for users of English).
A yank at the court of King Arthur.
Do "trimmed' and 'untrimmed' mean the same thing?

Charlton Ogburn was a yank.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The poet is also alluding to Elizabeth's
behaviour since coming to the throne -- of
turning down numerous proposals of marriage.
He is, as ever, warning of the danger of this
conduct -- faire England will decline its
'untrimmed' faire queen.
This interpretation would work if you could show
the poem was to Elizabeth, and that line 7
referred to her and not to Mary. You don't spell
out your narrative, though, so we can't know
which it does, and how.
You seem to accept that this line
could fit Elizabeth.  That must be
(according to you) entirely by chance.
So name another person in English
history whom it would also have fit.
My mother. Actually any person who had "fairs." But
it needn't fit a person because it is about a summer's day.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
9.   But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
The sestet focuses more on the English
Queen, but with allusions to Scotland, as
in 'fade' which was a Scottish form of 'feud'
at the time (see OED).  States and monarchies
did not fade away;  but they were destroyed
by feuds.
'Eternal' had another sense: a derogatory one
(which it still retains) for a period of time that
has lasted much longer than it should.  Here
Oxford is being sarcastic.  He shared the
common feeling that the duration of Elizabeth's
'summer' had become unconscionable.  Mary's
pregnancy had emphasised the lack of
seriousness in Elizabeth's conduct in the
1560s, in particular the slow, reluctant manner
in which she 'sought' a husband.
If he thought her summer too long, why did he
say it would not fade?  Oh, yes, sarcasm.  If the
poem says anything you don't think it should, it
proves sarcasm is going on, even though there's
no warning of it, no set-up.
And you'd need a warning -- perhaps
a distinct font for sarcasm and another
one irony?
Read Jane Austen. You might also tell me why, say,
"So long lives this" is NOT sarcasm. Or give me an example
of a poem that switches back and forth from non-irony to irony
the way you say this one does. In a short ironic lyric, either
everything will be ironic, or there will be an ironic ending,
clearly signaled, usually by exaggeration.

By the way, you did not explain what "summer"
means in this line. You claim summer represents some person
when it occurs elsewhere in the poem, not necessarily the same
person. Is it a person here. If not, why not?

Can a word change its secondary meaning anywhere you
want it to?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
10.  Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
'Owe' also meant 'own' -- and our poet must
necessarily pun on it.  The 'faire' that Elizabeth
both owned and owed was her virginity -- and
through that -- her realm.   The poet is implying
that her continued possession of former will
destroy that of the latter.  She owed England
duties -- which she was not performing.
Right.  Assume the line means the opposite of
what it says do to sarcasm.  the problem with
that is that you can make it say anything you
want it to that way.
Nope.  You can only apply the line to
a tiny number of people in a tiny
number of situations -- whether you
read it with or without sarcasm.
You can apply to millions since millions have fairs they
can lose. "Faire" has nothing to do particularly with virginity.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I have given you a reading that applies
to Elizabeth in 1566.  State some other
person at some other time to whom
such words could reasonably apply
-- with or without the sarcasm.
My mother before eh married. Me before I became
bald-headed.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
I could say the poem is in
praise of Mary, in which case line 2 is
sarcastically saying Elizabeth is the lovelier of
the two, which wasn't true.  Etc.
According to you -- and  the theory
you must necessarily espouse -- the
entire Sonnet could just as well have
been addressed to (say) Mary at any
time (by say, Darnley -- who was, in
fact, an excellent poet).   So tell us
how Line 10 could have been applied
to Mary in early 1566.
According to me the line has nothing to do with Mary or
Elizabeth, but with some unknown addressee. So, if it
could be shown to more likely apply to Elizabeth than
Mary, it would make no difference.

But the line could easily be applied to Mary--her head was fair
and she could lose it. Or she could lose Darnley, her fair.
Or she could lose her reputation. Just about anything.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
11.  Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
There is a reflection back to the dreadful
events in Scotland.  The poet hopes that his
own queen will never see violent death
visited on her favourites in her presence.
What does that have to do with your narrative to
this point? And why does it have to mean just
that rather than any of a hundred other things it
could easily mean--if we ignore the fact that it
obviously only means exactly what it says, that
the addressee will not enter the country that
others who die do--for a reason we'll soon be
told.
Does it -- or does it not -- fit my
scenario for this Sonnet?
Your scenario is suddenly that the poem is about
everything going on when you arbitrarily say it was
written. Of course it fits. But your scenario is insane.
No one sane writes a poem whose narrative jumps all
over the place like your secondary hidden narrative
does.

And a scenario that twenty words in the sonnet fit is
not necessarily there if those twenty words as easily
fit a hundred other scenarios, or some other group of
twenty words fits another scenario.

Just a reminder, Paul. Not all the poems of the time
were about Queen Elizabeth. In fact, most of them
were not about her. Believe. Not everyone or even
most people consider royalty more important than
the ordinary people in their lives.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You MUST say that it does not,
OR -- insofar as it does -- that any
apparent matching arises merely
by chance.  So what are the odds
that it did arise by chance?
Name another person in English or
any other history that these words
fit as well.  Oh -- you can't -- what
a surprise!  So let's say that your
inability (and that of every other
Strat and quasi-Strat in the world)
gives us odds here of 1,000 to one.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The line hints at the bawdy sense of 'small
death' (orgasm);  i.e. the Queen will not
enjoy this, if she is relying on poetry for her
immortality.
There is no sane reason to believe there's
anything bawdy about this line.
Your Victorian ancestors would have
thoroughly approved of your attitude.
Irrelevant. Does fact that Victorians sometimes refused
to acknowledge obvious bawdry mean that everyone who
says something is not bawdy is wrong? In any case,
there's no hint of "small death." Does "death" always have to
mean orgasm? And does "Nor shall orgasm brag thou
wandr'st in his shade" make sense?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
12.  When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
These lines have a scolding tone (which
became more strident in sonnets 1-17,
written a few years later).
It's a VERY long time since I believed
that there was any unity in the 1-17
sequence.  God, how dumb I used to
be!   Somehow I actually believed that
the 'scholars' had got something right.
How stupid can a person get?
I have no idea here what you're talking about.
Of course, 1 - 17 share the same theme.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Like the rest of
the nation, he desperately wanted her to
marry and have an heir, and grow in 'loins'
and in family lines of descent, rather than
just in lines of poetry.  'Eternal' is again
used ambiguously.
Why not give us your word for word explication?
Ambiguity.
Explicate it, including the so-called ambiguity.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
According to you this says, "when in eternal/impermanent
loins and lineages to time thou grow'st."

That;s a good follow-up to Nor shall orgasm brag thou
wandr'st in his shade."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
13.      So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
The two 'long's of the couplet pun on the
[..]
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
13.      So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
The line again alludes to the Riccio murder --
with 'breathe' being partly ironic, or used in
the sense of 'breathe out' (through multiple
stab wounds)
This is totally insane.  "So long couple as men
can breathe out through Riccio's multiple stab
wounds or eyes can see?"
It is (ambiguously) ironic.  The poet
is saying that men will never change;
they will always be violent and
murderous, and that his monarch
should never relax her vigilance.
AND that it would be much safer to
marry and have an heir.
Actually, it say, "So long as men can breathe or eyes can see."
There's nothing about change or violence or vigilance.

If it was intended as you have it, you would be able
to give three explications.

One, I suppose, would be

"So long as men can breathe (out through multiple stab
wounds) or eyes can see, which is ridiculous--who could read
"breathe" to mean what you say it does here?

along with something that means men will never change, but
I have no idea what does--you have to tell me.

along with something that means "you must be vigilant and perhaps
have children," which isn't there as far as I can tell, either.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and/or OED 16: 'to lance [a vein]
so as to give blood'.  The poet believes that
more deaths likely to follow (including that
of Darnley?) in the desperate confusion of
Scottish politics, created largely by Mary's
intemperate decision to marry him.  The future
is uncertain: 'so long . .  as eyes can see'.
There is probably a pun on 'eyes/Ays', with
(Och) 'Ays' = Scotsmen.
"So long as Scotsmen can see." Ays are Scotsmen?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
14.      So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
I am missing something in the final line or
in the couplet.
I did find it later.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
However, the scolding tone
continues.  Is immortal life in poetry all she
wants -- even if she assumes that she can
trust the poet's promises?
How about "So long lives England (this, which of course
can mean anything so we can make it mean England)
and England life give to you?

Paul, you are just doing what Art and Michael Martin do:
finding whatever meaning you want in a text by grabbing
the few words you can find that seem to you to connect
to your delusion and ignoring the others, and considering
the literal text irrelevant. I'm afraid I have to tell you that
Farey's interpretation of the monument inscription is much
better than your interpretation of this sonnet. At least he
explicates the entire text, and even finds external evidence,
however insane, to support it (the punctuation, wrong-case letters,
etc.)

I do think trying to set you straight helps me express better or
at least think more clearly about what it is that poetry actually
does.

--Bob G.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The first line of the couplet may allude to the
Scottish king;  the second to its queen.  The
poet expects her to survive; she is the
(undeclared) apparent heir.  So long as she
lives, Elizabeth's throne is safe.  (The English
would never remove Elizabeth while Mary
was next in line.)  In another sense, Mary
was carrying a child.  That 'life' would, in due
course, succeed Elizabeth.
    NOTE on "The Queen of Hearts"
I believe that it is quite probable that the
   "The Queen of Hearts baked some tarts
    All on a Summer's day . . "
came from the events of the second half
of 1565, and that it is the poet's source of
"a Summer's day".
There's no reason to believe "a summer's day"
came from the nursery rhyme.  So the sonnet
and the rhyme had the same phrase, so what?
Could the nursery rhyme be based on
Mary QS, Riccio and Darnley?  Or
do you reject that possibility?  If so,
on what grounds?
Could the Sonnet be based on Mary
QS, Riccio and Darnley?  Or do you
reject that possibility?  If so, on what
grounds?
Post by Paul Crowley
I'm ending here, for now.  I can't say what's
wrong with your explication until you give one,
You want poetry to be simple, and have
a simple explication.  Sorry, the world
(at least the Elizabethan world) was
not like that.
Post by Paul Crowley
Paul.  What I can say is that your various
thoughts about the meaning of the lines are
worthless unless you can show in detail how
what the poem says indicates your meaning.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Paul.
Paul Crowley
2010-04-09 11:36:39 UTC
Permalink
X-No-archive: yes
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
2. Thou art more louely and more temperate:
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of Maie,
4. And Sommers lease hath all too short a date:
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
8. By chance, or natures changing course vntrim'd:
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor loose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breath or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,

This poem is recognised as one of the most
beautiful of the sonnets and nothing I say
below should be taken as detracting from its
qualities as a poem -- in the abstract manner
in which is it conventionally read. The poet
intended that reading. But he could not have
achieved it -- and the rest of its beauty --
without building it upon a structure of multi-
layered meanings (nearly all which he made
obscure to the naive reader).

I do not know why this this poetic technique
works so well -- in the hands of a great poet.
I'm sure that no one else knows, nor has ever
known -- not even the poet himself. All we
can say is that it does. The formula appears
to be: encode density of meaning to the
maximum possible extent, while respecting
grammar, metre and verse, and leave the rest
to the magic of the language.

We do not have to understand those multi-
layered meanings in order to appreciate that
the poem is beautiful, but that appreciation
will be only of its top-most layer. It is
analogous to the love children have for
nursery rhymes.

Our poet also seemed to apply the rule that
he would only encode public meanings, or
those which would be available to posterity
as, nearly always, his images seem to have
such an origin; he has left us plenty of
clues as to their source.


1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?

The comparison of a person to a summer's
day is extraordinary -- almost magical. It is
commonly regarded as a supreme example of
Shakespeare's poetic imagination -- as, indeed,
it is. Helen Vendler writes: "What is the most
beautiful thing, the 'summum bonum', in an
(English) world? -- A summer's day."

The poet was teasing us. He knew that was
how we would read it (and the whole sonnet)
but in his mind he had other aspects of "a
summer's day". One is the transient nature of
its existence. Think of it in the context of his
adored's beauty. Would she have wished that it
last but a day?

The comparison is far from 'pure imagination'.
Shakespeare's genius lay in knowing how to
recruit into his poetry images he encountered
in other circumstances. The poet and his
addressee knew of another beauty, that did
gloriously, but briefly, flower; and it is to this
he asks: 'Shall I compare thee . . ?'.

It is not too difficult to guess to whom the
phrase 'Summers day' refers -- once we know
that the addressee of the sonnet was Queen
Elizabeth, and to whom she was constantly
compared during the early years of her reign:
Mary, Queen of Scots.

The poet wrote of her often, of the
extraordinary people surrounding her and
of the dreadful events in which they became
entangled. He established a distinct code.
Darnley was indicated by 'somer', the name
of the tall thin pole that formed the main
support in medieval houses. (Both Mary
and Darnley were unusually tall and thin.)

'Day' was pronounced much the same as
'die', as it still is in Cockney London; and
a 'die' or a 'death' was an orgasm. So, the
phrase: "summer's day" meant a "Darnley's
fuck": "Shall I compare thee to a Darnley's
fuck?"

I strongly suspect that there was a particular
and immediate source for 'a Summers day',
and I describe a possibility in a final note.


2. Thou art more louely and more temperate:

Of course, Elizabeth comes off much more
favourably in this comparison. The poet
meant 'lovely' to be taken by his addressee
in the usual sense, but he had others also in
mind. 'Lovely' had a wider range of meanings
at the time, with its oldest senses being:
'loving, kind, affectionate'; 'amorous'; and
'friendly, amicable' (see OED). Taken in this
sense, the comparison was barbed.

Edward VI had famously called Elizabeth his
"sweet sister Temperance", probably meaning
that she was less ardent in her Protestantism
than him. But it was a virtue she sought all
her life. Recent events had shown it was one
which Mary, Queen of Scots, most conspicuously
lacked. The poet may also have been referring
to elaborate plans for a meeting between the
two queens about four years previously (in 1562):

"In London the prospect of the encounter was considered
sufficiently certain for the actual masques to be devised which
were to entertain the two queens, the chosen allegorical theme
being the punishment of False Report and Discord by Jupiter
at the request of Prudence and Temperance. The detailed and
long-winded plans for the masques -- three nights of them -- were
vetted personally by Cecil and much courtly care was exercised
in the delicate task of balancing the allegorical compliments to
both royal ladies . . " (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS* page 168)


3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of Maie,

This sonnet was written around April 1566
after the first 'rough patch' endured by Mary
-- the murder of David Riccio (on 9 March)
by her husband, King Henry (Darnley), Lord
Ruthven and several more of the Protestant
nobility:

" . . a few minutes later there was a far more astonishing apparition
up the staircase -- Patrick Lord Ruthven, with a steel cap on, and
with his armour showing through his gown, burning-eyed and pale
from the illness of which he was generally thought to be dying on
his sick-bed in a house close to Holyrood. So amazing was his
emergence at the queen's supper party, that the first reaction of
those present was that he was actually delirious, and had somehow
felt himself pursued, in his fever, by the spectre of one of his victims.
[ as in Macbeth -- PC ] Ruthven -- who did in fact die three months
after these events took place -- was a highly unsavoury character,
popularly supposed to be a warlock or male witch, or at any rate in
Knox's phrase to 'use enchantment'. However, his first words left the
queen in no doubt as to what had brought this death's head to her
feast. 'Let it please your Majesty,' said Ruthven, 'that yonder man
David come forth of your privy-chamber where he hath been overlong.'
Mary replied with astonishment that Riccio was there at her own royal
wish, and asked Ruthven whether he had taken leave of his senses. . ."
(op. cit. page 252.)
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of Maie,
'May' is (or was until recently) a common
abbreviation for 'Mary'. 'Rough winds' is
based on 'Ruth-ven'. 'Ruth' was a contemporary
Scottish form of 'rough' (see OED under 'ruth',
'routh' and 'rough'); the poet takes 'ven' as
based on 'vent' = 'wind' in French (pronounced
without the 't').

Another sense is that some windy (or
wordy) persons had turned rough.

" . . Damiot talked of his unpopularity. Riccio said grandly:
'Parole, parole, nothing but words. The Scots will boast but
rarely perform their brags.' Mary took the same line. Melville
tried to warn her also of what was going on . . . Mary replied
that something of the sort had also come to her own ears, but
she had paid no attention since 'our countrymen were well-
wordy' . ." (op. cit. page 249.)

There is a minor pun on 'darling/Darnley'
'Darling Darnley' had highly effeminate looks
and had been young and pretty enough, at
least until recently. Also Mary was a keen
'darner', famous for her embroidery.
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of Maie,
The line expresses a gloriously bawdy theme.
Mary is portrayed in the act of sex with Darnley
being roughly shaken, their limbs wound around
each other (in the 'rough windes'). At the time
the 'wind' was pronounced to rhyme with 'mind',
'find' or 'bind', making the pun more obvious.

'Rough' may also allude to Darnley's known
behaviour when copulating (or perhaps it's a
guess based on his general conduct). 'Buds'
probably has a variety of references: her breasts
would be vigorously shaken in the act of sex,
and also later when she had to ride fast over-
night to Dunbar, in her escape from the
conspirators who had killed Riccio.

The line is an astonishing combination of the
meteorological /horticultural and the political,
both set against a gloriously bawdy image of
the entwined royal couple writhing in passion.


4. And Sommers lease hath all too short a date:

'All too short a date' refers to the sudden end
of David Riccio in both the obvious sense and
in other ways. His shortness of stature and his
ugliness were well-known. Mary was remarkably
tall to those times, and Darnley was even taller.)
Also the poet commonly bawdily puns on 'all' =
'awl' = 'penis'. He may be implying (in 'all too
short') that Riccio's penis was too short for the
Queen.

'Date' was a Scottish word: 'to pet, fondle, caress,
make much of'. See OED under 'daut'. (This sense
is almost certainly related to the modern 'date' as
a romantic appointment.)

'Sommer' here is also Darnley, and lease was
another spelling of 'leash'. The poet envisages
Darnley whipping Riccio. 'Lease' is also meant
in a more regular sense: Darnley had simply
run out of patience with Riccio, and with his
wife.

A broader sense of line 4 may also be
addressed to Elizabeth. If she was to have an
heir of her body, she needed to get on with it.


5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,

The 'eye of heaven' is the sun -- a symbol of
royalty. Here the poet beautifully exploits the
bawdy potential of a 'hot' and a royal 'eye'
opening into a royal 'heaven' -- alluding, of
course, to the intensity of Mary's sexual
passion in her brief marriage with Darnley, and
the allegations of an affair with Riccio. 'Shines'
may reflect the sense of 'taking a shine' -- even
if the OED does not record this until 1848.

The poet writes 'sometime' and not 'sometimes'.
It is easy to hear that 'sometime' works,
whereas 'sometimes' does not -- even if it is
hard to say why. These words are not the same,
even if 'sometime' could also mean 'sometimes'.
The line is always read in the sense of 'sometimes'.
In fact, 'sometime' had other senses, now obsolete,
which the poet intended -- applying to the (former)
sexual passion exhibited by Mary QS.

'Sometime' (OED)
2a. At a certain time, on a particular occasion, in the past;
once. Obsolete.
1484 Caxton Fables of Avian iv, This fable of an asse whiche
somtyme fond the skynne of a lyon.
1526 Pilgr. Perf. (W. de W. 1531) 3b, As it was somtyme shewed
to Noe in the tyme of the vniuersal flode.
1581 G. Pettie tr. Guazzo's Civ. Conv. iii. (1586) 147b, Like
as the Crauish sometime did. Who [etc.].
1620 Frier Rush 1 There was sometime beyond the Sea edified and
founded a certaine house.
1653 Baxter Saints' Rest iii. vi. (1662) 387 Let the power
speak, which sometime said, 'Lazarus arise!'
1661 Ussher Power of Princes i. (1683) 50 The first Christian
Emperour Constantine used this speech sometime unto his
Bishops.

2b. At one time; in former times, formerly. Obsolete.
1535 Coverdale Wisd. v. 3 These are they, whom we somtyme had
in derision, & iested vpon.
1570--6 Lambarde Peramb. Kent (1826) 193 Farley . . . belonged
sometime to the Monks of Christs church in Canterburie.
1600 J. Pory tr. Leo's Africa ii. 66 It was sometime gouerned
by a certaine tyrant.
a1700 Evelyn Diary 25 July 1678, A worthy . . . gentleman, with
whom my son was sometime bred in Arundel House.
1786--1805 Tooke Purley (1829) I. 404 The whole verb Dure was
some time used commonly in our language.


6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,

Line 5 refers to the Queen (in a sexual passion);
line 6 to the King. "Dimm'd" alludes mostly to
(a) his successive apparent changes in religion
(see below) (b) his bouts of furious anger,
(c) his 'eclipse' by Riccio, (d) his regular
shortages of cash, and (e) his frequent illnesses
probably from syphilis, pock-marking his face;
see a dramatic image of a 'gold complexion'
being dimmed at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3301479.stm

'Complexion' often meant religious affiliation at
the time, and 'gold' is the Papal colour. Darnley
had been brought up a Catholic but he started
off in Scotland as Protestant (absenting himself
from the nuptial mass for his wedding); he then
apparently reverted to Catholicism, attending
midnight Mass at Christmas 1565 (while Mary
played cards). At the feast of the Purification
of the Virgin Mary on 2 Feb 1566, with Mary, he
carried lighted tapers through the streets of
Edinburgh -- a notably Catholic gesture -- which
would have lit up his complexion. That light
was then dimmed by his plot with the Protestant
nobles to murder Riccio and seize power from
Mary. She then persuaded him to join with her
in the suppression of those same nobles.

Darnley was addressed as 'King Henry' but he
was essentially only a consort. Even though
he had little interest in administration, he
constantly demanded the 'crown matrimonial'
which would grant him power equal to Mary
while she lived and would have continued
after her death if he survived her. Mary and
the Scottish parliament would not grant this,
leading to rows about the manner in which
they should sign documents and, in particular,
on the way their images should be presented
on coins.

"Certainly her violent infatuation for Darnley had not survived
the onsets of pregnancy, and she could after all no longer share
the pleasures of hunting and hawking which both had once
enjoyed so keenly. On 20 December, Bedford from Berwick
reported that, 'The Lord Darnley followeth his pastimes more
than the Queen is content withal; what it will breed hereafter
I cannot say, but in the meantime there is some misliking
between them.' On 25 December Randolph noted that 'a while
ago there was nothing but King and Queen, now the Queen's
husband is the common word. He was wont in all writings to be
first named: now he is placed second.' The relative placing of
the two names Henry and Mary was at the heart of the
mysterious matter of the silver 'ryal', a new denomination of
coin introduced shortly after their marriage at a nominal value
of thirty shillings. This 'ryal' showed the heads of Mary and
Darnley facing each other on one side, and on the other in
Latin a reference to their marriage - 'Whom God has joined
together, let no man put asunder'. In December Randolph also
reported that this coin had been withdrawn from circulation in
Scotland, because the names of the royal pair were engraved on
it in an unusual order as HENRICUS & MARIA D. GRA. R & R.
SCOTORUM. Randolph represented Mary as now regretting
the prominence given to Darnley's name, which for once
preceded that of the queen. " (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS*
page 240)

The 'dimming of the gold complexion' is
probably also a reference to the dispute
about these images, with the poet thinking
of gold coins.


7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,

The decline of 'faire from faire' refers mainly to
the deterioration of the royal marriage, as Mary
denied Darnley her bed, and he found his pleasures
elsewhere. Both Mary and Darnley had been known
for their striking beauty. ("In these portraits
Darnley appears at first sight like a young god,
with his golden hair, his perfectly shaped face
with its short straight nose, the neat oval chin . ."
-- op. cit. page 220.) It would also refer to the
erosion of beauty with age and illness, with
particular reference to that of Darnley, Mary and
Elizabeth.

Again the word here is 'some-time', and the poet
is referring to events which have taken place.


8. By chance, or natures changing course vntrim'd:

Both Mary and Darnley were known for their
addiction to card-playing and gambling -- as
was not uncommon among courtiers of the
day. 'Chance' or 'hazard' was a card game often
played by courtiers. The poet is suggesting
that a major reason for the decline in the
marriage was Darnley's generally dissolute
behaviour, particularly during Mary's pregnancy.

Another reason for the decline was 'natures
changing course' -- where 'nature' is Mary (or
Elizabeth, or women generally). 'Untrimmed'
alludes viciously to the knife used to 'trim'
Riccio. (He had around 60 stab wounds, the
fatal ones probably from Darnley's dagger,
wielded by a Douglas relation.)

'Untrimmed' is also IMO used in a political
sense (even if the OED's first report in this
sense is 1682). OED 5 'trimmer' = 'one who
inclines to each of two opposite sides as
interest dictates'. Darnley seemed to exist by
'trimming' (even if a hopelessly ill-directed
version), and Mary had shown plenty of
devious 'trimming' in order to escape from her
captors.

'Untrimmed' also had a bawdy sense. 'To
trim' was to deflower or possess a woman.

AARON (TA V.1.89) . . .
'Twas her two sons that murder'd Bassianus;
They cut thy sister's tongue and ravish'd her
And cut her hands and trimm'd her as thou saw'st.
LUCIUS O detestable villain! call'st thou that trimming?
AARON Why, she was wash'd and cut and trimm'd, and 'twas
Trim sport for them that had the doing of it.
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
The poet is also alluding to Elizabeth's
behaviour since coming to the throne -- of
turning down numerous proposals of marriage
He is, as ever, warning of the danger of this
conduct -- faire England will decline its
'untrimmed' faire queen.


9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,

The sestet focuses more on the English
Queen, but with allusions to Scotland, as
in 'fade' which was a Scottish form of 'feud'
at the time (see OED). States and monarchies
did not fade away; but they were destroyed
by feuds.

'Eternal' had another sense: a derogatory one
(which it still retains) for a period of time that
has lasted much longer than it should. Here
Oxford is being sarcastic. He shared the
common feeling that the duration of Elizabeth's
'summer' had become unconscionable. Mary's
pregnancy had emphasised the lack of
seriousness in Elizabeth's conduct in the
1560s, in particular the slow, reluctant manner
in which she 'sought' a husband.


10. Nor loose possession of that faire thou ow'st,

'Owe' also meant 'own' -- and our poet must
necessarily pun on it. The 'faire' that Elizabeth
both owned and owed was her virginity -- and
through that -- her realm. The poet is implying
that her continued possession of the former
will destroy that of the latter. She owed England
duties -- which she was not performing.


11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,

There is a reflection back to the dreadful
events in Scotland. The poet hopes that his
own queen will never see violent death
visited on her favourites in her presence.

The line hints at the bawdy sense of 'small
death' (orgasm); i.e. the Queen will not
enjoy this, if she is relying on poetry for her
immortality.


12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,

These lines have a scolding tone. Like the
rest of the nation, he desperately wanted her
to marry and have an heir, and grow in 'loins'
and in family lines of descent, rather than
just in lines of poetry. 'Eternal' is again
used ambiguously.


13. So long as men can breath or eyes can see,

The two 'long's of the couplet pun on the
'long couple' (Darnley and Mary both being
remarkable for their height and slenderness).

" . . her height, when described, is always commented on with
admiration. This may be in part due to the fact that, although tall,
Mary had extremely delicate bones . . . combined to give an
appearance of graceful elongation: it also made her an excellent
dancer . . in a manner calculated to dazzle the public eye at a
time when the personal image of a sovereign was of marked
consequence. . ." (op. cit. page 77.)
" . . It was Darnley's height which was considered at the time to
be his main physical characteristic -- had not Elizabeth called him
'yon long lad' when she pointed him out to Melville? -- and he
was fortunate in being slender with it, or as Melville put it, 'long
and small, even and straight'. His elegant physique could hardly
fail to commend itself to Mary for two reasons. Firstly, beautiful
as she was, Mary was nevertheless tall enough to tower over most
of her previous companions, including her first husband Francis.
The psychological implications of this height can only be guessed
at, but as Darnley was certainly well over six feet one inch . . "
(op. cit. page 221.)
13. So long as men can breath or eyes can see,
The double 'longs' of the couplet represent
the 'long couple'. The first line is about the
King, and his victim, Riccio, 'breathing' his
last through 'eyes' made by those 60 knife
wounds. Those 'eyes' saw terror and murder
-- the result of disastrous management of
the state. That fate threatened England
almost as much.

The poet believes that more deaths are
likely to follow (including that of Darnley?)
in the desperate confusion of Scottish
politics, created largely by Mary's intemperate
decision to marry him. The future is uncertain:
'so long . . as eyes can see'. There is a pun
on 'eyes/Ays', with (Och) 'Ays' = Scotsmen.


14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,

The 'this' of line 14 refers to the Queen of
Scots. She will live as long as she escapes
murder. Also, so long as she lives, Elizabeth's
throne is safe. (The English would never
remove Elizabeth while Mary was next in line.)
In another sense, Mary was carrying a child.
That 'life' would, in due course, succeed
Elizabeth.


NOTE on "The Queen of Hearts"

I believe that it is highly likely that the
nursery rhyme:

"The Queen of Hearts baked some tarts
All on a Summer's day . . "

came from the events of the second half
of 1565, and that it is the poet's source of
"a Summer's day".

The rhyme first appears in print in 1805, but
no queen, before or since Mary QS, had a
better claim to the title 'Queen of Hearts'.
She was immensely popular with her people
in the early 1560s, being young, beautiful,
full of life, charm and good humour, and in
1565 she was in the process of giving them
an heir to the throne. English noses were
somewhat out of joint as a result, especially
because of the intense concern over the
absence of an heir to Elizabeth -- other than
Mary herself, who was feared and detested
on account of being Catholic, French and
a Guise.

However, with the disastrous marriage to
Darnley, followed by its entirely predictable
decline, the English were, for the first time,
in a position to make fun of her, of her
vicious, if foppish, husband, and of her
Italian 'lover'.

"Regardless of the fact that Lennox and Darnley had gone
north with her express permission, Elizabeth exploded with
anger and demanded their instant return. When neither paid
any attention to her angry bulletins, Throckmorton was sent
north to dissuade Mary from the disastrous, nay, menacing
course of marrying Darnley. Mary in Scotland was in no state
to listen to the advice of even the sagest counsellor. Love
was rampant in her heart for the first time, and she could hear
no other voice except the dictates of her own passionate
feelings. In the words of a poem of the period, it was a case
of 'O lusty May, with Flora Queen' at the court of Scotland.
Randolph wrote back to Leicester in anguish of his 'poor
Queen whom ever before I esteemed so worthy, so wise, so
honourable in all her doings', now so altered by love that he
could hardly recognize her." (op. cit. page 227.)

The phrase 'baked some tarts' would have
been meant bawdily. The Knave of Hearts
(who stole the tarts) was David Riccio, and
the King of Hearts was Darnley. Again, no
king before or after Darnley better suits that
title -- being young, beautiful, and violent.
And it is doubtful if a knave (fit for beating)
better than Riccio can be found.

The rhyme would have been become popular
before the murder of Riccio. That crime is
unlikely to have been the subject of such light-
hearted verse or, if it had been, we'd expect a
stronger reference. The 'beating' in the rhyme
may have been based on another known one
by Darnley or it may simply have reflected his
notorious character.

"Randolph reported [in May 1565] that Darnley was now
grown so proud that he was intolerable to all honest men,
and already almost forgetful of his duty to Mary -- she who
had adventured so much for his sake. Darnley's health had
taken an unconscionable long time to recover, and even
while on his sick-bed he had struck the ageing duke of
Châtelherault on his pate to avenge some fancied slight."
(op. cit. page 227.)

Darnley's pride waxed with the queen's affection: to show
his virility, he launched out characteristically with blows
towards those who he knew would not dare to retaliate.
On the day in May [1565] on which he was created earl of
Ross, he drew his dagger on the wretched justice clerk who
brought him the message, because he was not also made
duke of Albany as he had expected. It was the typical
gesture of the spoilt and vindictive child. By the beginning
of July, Darnley was held in such general contempt that
even those who had been his chief friends could no longer
find words to defend him. Randolph made the gloomy, but
as it proved singularly accurate, prophecy: 'I know not,
but it is greatly to be feared that he can have no long life
among these people' . .". (op. cit. page 228.)

The Queen of Hearts,
She made some tarts,
All on a summer's day;
The Knave of hearts,
He stole those tarts,
And took them clean away.

The King of Hearts
Called for the tarts,
And beat the knave full sore;
The Knave of hearts
Brought back the tarts,
And vowed he'd steal no more.
Bob Grumman
2014-10-20 00:06:37 UTC
Permalink
I had all kinds of trouble finding this, but finally did. It once again refutes his insane claim that no one has presented an argument against his interpretation of Sonnet 18. It's from a thread with other arguments of mine and arguments of others, a the usual denials by Paul. But I think he admits in one post that he changed his interpretation because of something I said.

this should get you to the full thread: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare/KImh0GU67Sg
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
This is one of Paul Crowley's posts about Sonnet 18 that he
says I never presented an argument against.
I, of course, have, many times, but Paul refuses to accept that
I have. Either I can't quickly give him a pertinent URL or I
give him one containing something I think is an argument
but he doesn't, and he of course gets to decide.
Anyway, I'm away from home without much to do today
but able to get on the Internet, so I thought I'd revisit Paul's
truly insane "exegesis" of Sonnet 18, a a little at a time..
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1.   Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5.   Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6.   And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7.   And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9.   But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10.  Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11.  Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12.  When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13.      So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14.      So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
1.   Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
The comparison of a person to a summer's
day is extraordinary -- almost magical.   It is
commonly regarded as a supreme example of
Shakespeare's poetic imagination -- as, indeed,
it is.  Helen Vendler writes: "What is the most
beautiful thing, the 'summum bonum', in an
(English) world? -- A summer's day."
The poet was teasing us.  He knew that was
how we would read it (and the whole sonnet)
but in his mind he had other aspects of "a
summer's day".  One is the transient nature of
its existence.  Think of it in the context of his
adored's beauty.  Would she have wished that
last but a day?
The comparison is far from 'pure imagination'.
Shakespeare's genius lay in knowing how to
recruit into his poetry images he encountered
in other circumstances.  The poet and his
addressee knew of another beauty, that did
gloriously, but briefly, flower;  and it is to this
he asks: 'Shall I compare thee . . ?'.
It is not too difficult to guess to whom the
phrase 'Summers day' refers -- once we know
that the addressee of the sonnet was Queen
Elizabeth, and to whom she was, at one stage
in her reign, constantly compared.
But there is no indication whatever that this sonnet is
addressed to Queen Elizabeth. There is, in fact, no
clue whatever as to whom this sonnet was addressed, nor
even the sex of that person.
It is part of a sequence, so if we want to guess whom it's to,
we could reasonably see if there's a clue in the sonnets
preceding it. Those, to every sane person who reads them,
are addressed to a young man, not a woman, so not to
Queen Elizabeth.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I strongly suspect that there was a particular
and immediate source for 'a Summers day',
and I describe a possibility in a note below.
So far the Crowley Reading is "Shall I compare you,
Elizabeth, to a summer's day (to be identified later)?"
Except that the sonnet could be addressed to just about
anybody, and there's no reason to assume it was
addressed to Elizabeth, there is nothing wrong with it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Of course, Elizabeth comes off much more
favourably in this comparison.  The poet
meant 'lovely' to be taken by his addressee
in the usual sense, but he had others also in
mind.  'Lovely' had a wider range of meanings
'loving, kind, affectionate'; 'amorous'; and
'friendly, amicable' (see OED).  Taken in this
sense, the comparison was barbed.
Recent events had shown that the quality
Mary, Queen of Scots, most conspicuously
lacked was temperance.   The poet may have
been referring back to elaborate plans for a
meeting between the two queens about four
Queen Elizabeth was known to throw tantrums. Not
everyone would deem her particularly temperate. Again,
though, the sonneteer might have. There is nothing to
indicate that Mary is in the poem, I should add. Crowley
just sticks her in.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"In London the prospect of the encounter was considered
sufficiently certain for the actual masques to be devised which
were to entertain the two queens, the chosen allegorical theme
being the punishment of False Report and Discord by Jupiter
at the request of Prudence and Temperance. The detailed and
long-winded plans for the masques -- three nights of them -- were
vetted personally by Cecil and much courtly care was exercised
in the delicate task of balancing the allegorical compliments to
both royal ladies . . "  (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS* page 168)
Lots of masques, plays, poems, romance, pamphlets, sermons, etc.
were about prudence and temperance. There's no reason whatever
to claim any particular one of them had anything to do with this
sonnet.
Note that so far Crowely has provided no word for word explication of
the poem.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
This sonnet was written around April 1566
after the first 'rough patch' endured by Mary
-- the murder of David Riccio (on 9 March)
by her husband, King Henry (Darnley), Lord
Ruthven and several more of the Protestant
Lot os people experience "rough patches." It is ridiculously
arbitrary to maintain that the word, "rough," in this context
has anything to do with any particular rough patch. It is clearly
used merely to indicate that a summer day is not necessarily
wholly serene.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
" . . a few minutes later there was a far more astonishing apparition
up the staircase -- Patrick Lord Ruthven, with a steel cap on, and
with his armour showing through his gown, burning-eyed and pale
from the illness of which he was generally thought to be dying on
his sick-bed in a house close to Holyrood. So amazing was his
emergence at the queen's supper party, that the first reaction of
those present was that he was actually delirious, and had somehow
felt himself pursued, in his fever, by the spectre of one of his
victims.
[ as in Macbeth -- PC ]  Ruthven -- who did in fact die three months
after these events took place -- was a highly unsavoury character,
popularly supposed to be a warlock or male witch, or at any rate in
Knox's phrase to 'use enchantment'.  However, his first words left the
queen in no doubt as to what had brought this death's head to her
feast. 'Let it please your Majesty,' said Ruthven, 'that yonder man
David come forth of your privy-chamber where he hath been overlong.'
Mary replied with astonishment that Riccio was there at her own royal
wish, and asked Ruthven whether he had taken leave of his senses. . ."
 (op. cit. page 252.)
So what?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
'May' is (or was until recently) a common
abbreviation for 'Mary'.  'Rough winds' is
based on 'Ruth-ven'.  'Ruth' was a contemporary
Scottish form of 'rough' (see OED under 'ruth',
'routh' and 'rough');  the poet takes 'ven' as
based on 'vent' = 'wind' in French (pronounced
without the 't').
Another sense is that some windy (or
wordy) persons had turned rough.
'Parole, parole, nothing but words. The Scots will boast but
rarely perform their brags.' Mary took the same line. Melville
tried to warn her also of what was going on . .  . Mary replied
that something of the sort had also come to her own ears, but
she had paid no attention since 'our countrymen were well-
wordy' . ." (op. cit. page 249.)
There is a minor pun on 'darling/Darnley'
('darling Darnley' had highly effeminate looks
and had been young and pretty enough, at
least until recently).
"Darling" is not a pun for "Darnley"--neither syllable of
"Darnley" matches either of "darling."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
The poet also intended bawdy puns.  The
present tense in line 3 suggests that Mary was
currently enjoying vigorous sexual relations --
(possibly with Riccio).  'Darling buds' refers
in the political sense to the infant in her womb,
and in the bawdy one to her breasts; similarly
'shake' and 'rough winds' (in the sense of
'windings') alludes to sexual intercourse.  It
was still possible for our poet to joke about the
intensity of Mary's passion for Darnley (and
Riccio?) and to speculate on the nature of their
love-making.
The line is an astonishing combination of the
meteorological /horticultural and the political,
both set against a gloriously bawdy image of
the entwined royal couple writhing in passion.
Fine. Give us the word for word paraphrase of it. Can you?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'All too short a date' refers to the sudden end
of David Riccio in both the obvious sense and
in other ways.
Your narrative to this point seems to be saying that Elizabeth
is more temperate than Mary, whose get banged by Ruthven What
does "the sudden end" of Riccio have to do with this.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
 His shortness of stature and his
ugliness were well-known.  Mary was remarkably
tall to those times, and Darnley was even taller.)
Also the poet commonly bawdily puns on 'all' =
'awl' = 'penis'.  He may be implying  (in 'all too
short') that Riccio's penis was too short for the
Queen.
'Date' was a Scottish word: 'to pet, fondle, caress,
make much of'.  See OED under 'daut'.  (This
sense may, or may not, be related  to the modern
usage of 'date' as a romantic appointment.)
Mary's summer passion for Darnley had been
remarkably intense but, in the nature of such
things, had a short lease of life.  As Burghley
famously remarked: "Nuptiae Carnales a laetitia
incipiunt et in luctu terminantur."
There is something in 'Sommers lease' that
I cannot see.  (John Somers was a high
ambassadorial official, and may have had
dealings with Riccio.)
A broader sense of line 4 may also be
addressed to Elizabeth.  If she was to have an
heir of her body, she needed to get on with it.
So, paraphrase the line. I have no idea what you're
saying it means for you, so I can't critique it, except to
say that pulling words out of your rigidniplex concerning
Elizabeth and Mary whenever there's any kind of
possible connection to a word in the line in not
responsible paraphrasing.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
5.   Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
The 'eye of heaven' is the sun -- a symbol of
royalty.  Here the poet beautifully exploits the
bawdy potential of a 'hot' and a royal 'eye'
opening into a royal 'heaven' -- alluding, of
course, to the intensity of Mary's sexual
passion in her brief marriage with Darnley,
In that case, the poem's speaker is calling Mary "heaven."
How can he then think Elizabeth superior to her?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and the allegations of an affair with Riccio.  'Shines'
may reflect the sense of 'taking a shine' -- even
if  the OED does not record this until 1848.
6.   And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
Line 5 refers to the (Queen in a sexual passion).
There's no reference to "queen" in line 5, nor
to a "king" in line 6. The two lines are clearly about
the same entity, "summer"--sometimes his eye
is too hot and often is his complexion dimmed, yet
you claim line 5 is about Mary, line 6 about some
male king--Darnley? Hence, you have one of the two
lines wrong.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Line 6 refers to the King.  There may be bawdy
allusions here, but "dimm'd" would refer to his
'eclipse' by Riccio, to his bouts of furious anger,
to his frequent illnesses (probably from syphilis,
pock-marking his face), to his regular shortages
of cash, and to his various 'changes' in religion.
'Complexion' often meant religious affiliation,
with 'gold' being associated with the Papacy
Darnley had been brought up a Catholic but he
started off in Scotland as Protestant (absenting
himself from the nuptial mass for his wedding);
he then seemed to revert to Catholicism carrying
lighted tapers through the streets of Edinburgh
at the feast of the Purification of the Virgin Mary
on 2 Feb 1566 -- a notably Catholic gesture --
which would have lit up his complexion.  That
light was then dimmed by his plot with the
Protestant nobles to murder Riccio and seize
power from Mary.   She then persuaded him to
join with her in the suppression of those same
nobles.
You are arbitrarily pinning meanings to words. Without
giving a word for word explication.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Darnley was addressed as 'King Henry' but he
was essentially only a consort.  Even though
he had little interest in administration, he
constantly demanded the 'crown matrimonial'
which would grant him power equal to Mary
while she lived and would have continued
after her death if he survived her. Mary and
the Scottish parliament would not  grant this,
leading to rows about the manner in which
they should sign documents and, in particular,
on the way their images should be presented
on coins.
There's nothing in the line to link it to Darnley.
Or anything but a summer's day.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"Certainly her violent infatuation for Darnley had not survived
the onsets of pregnancy, and she could after all no longer share
the pleasures of hunting and hawking which both had once
enjoyed so keenly.  On 20 December, Bedford from Berwick
reported that, 'The Lord Darnley followeth his pastimes more
than the Queen is content withal; what it will breed hereafter
I cannot say, but in the meantime there is some misliking
between them.' On 25 December Randolph noted that 'a while
ago there was nothing but King and Queen, now the Queen's
husband is the common word. He was wont in all writings to be
first named: now he is placed second.' The relative placing of
the two names Henry and Mary was at the heart of the
mysterious matter of the silver 'ryal', a new denomination of
coin introduced shortly after their marriage at a nominal value
of thirty shillings. This 'ryal' showed the heads of Mary and
Darnley facing each other on one side, and on the other in
Latin a reference to their marriage - 'Whom God has joined
together, let no man put asunder'. In December Randolph also
reported that this coin had been withdrawn from circulation in
Scotland, because the names of the royal pair were engraved on
it in an unusual order as HENRICUS & MARIA D. GRA. R & R.
SCOTORUM. Randolph represented Mary as now regretting
the prominence given to Darnley's name, which for once
preceded that of the queen. "  (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS*
page 240)
The 'dimming of the gold complexion' is
probably also a reference to the dispute
about these images, with the poet thinking
of gold coins.
Hey, maybe he had a gold tooth, too.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
7.   And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
The decline of 'faire from faire' refers mainly to
the deterioration of the royal marriage.
Why. And how does that fit your narrative? Can you
explicate this line, rather than just float vague opinions
about it?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Botj Mary and Darnley were known for their striking
beauty. ("In these portraits Darnley appears at
first sight like a young god, with his golden hair,
his perfectly shaped face with its short straight
nose, the neat oval chin . ." -- op. cit. page 220.)
It would also refer to the erosion of beauty with
age and illness, with particular reference to that
of Darnley, Mary and Elizabeth.
There may be other allusions as well, with a
pun on 'Ver' being likely;  a 'Venus & Adonis'
relationship (of some sort) between Oxford
and the Queen is likely.
No effective poet is going to clutter a poem with
the multitude of incongruous images you think this
one does.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Both Mary and Darnley were known for their
addiction to card-playing and gambling -- as
was not uncommon among courtiers of the
day.  'Chance' or 'hazard' was a common card
game played by courtiers.   The poet is
suggesting that a major reason for the decline
in the marriage was Darnley's generally
dissolute behaviour, particularly during
Mary's pregnancy.
Another reason for the decline was 'natures
changing course' -- where 'nature' is Mary (or
Elizabeth, or women generally).  'Untrimmed'
alludes viciously to the knife used to 'trim'
Riccio.  (He had ~60 stab wounds, the fatal
ones probably from Darnley's dagger, wielded
by a Douglas relation.)
Fair things decline due to gambling, Mary's changeableness,
which trims Riccio? But the poem is saying every fair sometimes
declines; it is not alluding to any particular fair.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'Untrimmed' is also IMO used in a political
sense (even if the OED's first report in this
sense is 1682). OED 5 'trimmer' = 'one who
inclines to each of two opposite sides as
interest dictates'.  Darnley seemed to exist
by 'trimming', and Mary had shown plenty of
devious 'trimming' in order to escape from her
captors.
If you are a trimmer, you don't become "untrimmed."
The linguistics are wrong.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'Untrimmed' also had a bawdy sense.  'To
trim' was to deflower or possess a woman.
Right: cram some bawdry into it whether it fits
in any way or not. Some poets, you should know, though
favor keeping focus.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
AARON      (TA  V.1.89) . . .
        'Twas her two sons that murder'd Bassianus;
        They cut thy sister's tongue and ravish'd her
        And cut her hands and trimm'd her as thou saw'st.
LUCIUS   O detestable villain! call'st thou that trimming?
AARON   Why, she was wash'd and cut and trimm'd, and 'twas
                    Trim sport for them that had the doing of it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
7.   And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
"Trimmed" in one, and "untrimmed" in the other. Sounds to
me (aside from one of Art's lunatic word-games) like the fairs
of line 7 are given their virginity in line 8, untrimming having
to be the oppositre of trimming (for users of English).
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The poet is also alluding to Elizabeth's
behaviour since coming to the throne -- of
turning down numerous proposals of marriage.
He is, as ever, warning of the danger of this
conduct -- faire England will decline its
'untrimmed' faire queen.
This interpretation would work if you could show the poem was
to Elizabeth, and that line 7 referred to her and not to Mary.
You don't spell out your narrative, though, so we can't know which
it does, and how.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
9.   But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
The sestet focuses more on the English
Queen, but with allusions to Scotland, as
in 'fade' which was a Scottish form of 'feud'
at the time (see OED).  States and monarchies
did not fade away;  but they were destroyed
by feuds.
'Eternal' had another sense: a derogatory one
(which it still retains) for a period of time that
has lasted much longer than it should.  Here
Oxford is being sarcastic.  He shared the
common feeling that the duration of Elizabeth's
'summer' had become unconscionable.  Mary's
pregnancy had emphasised the lack of
seriousness in Elizabeth's conduct in the
1560s, in particular the slow, reluctant manner
in which she 'sought' a husband.
If he thought her summer too long, why did he say
it would not fade? Oh, yes, sarcasm. If the poem says
anything you don't think it should, it proves sarcasm is
going on, even though there's no warning of it, no set-up.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
10.  Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
'Owe' also meant 'own' -- and our poet must
necessarily pun on it.  The 'faire' that Elizabeth
both owned and owed was her virginity -- and
through that -- her realm.   The poet is implying
that her continued possession of former will
destroy that of the latter.  She owed England
duties -- which she was not performing.
Right. Assume the line means the opposite of what
it says do to sarcasm. the problem with that is that
you can make it say anything you want it to that way.
I could say the poem is in praise of Mary, in which
case line 2 is sarcastically saying Elizabeth is the
lovelier of the two, which wasn't true. Etc.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
11.  Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
There is a reflection back to the dreadful
events in Scotland.  The poet hopes that his
own queen will never see violent death
visited on her favourites in her presence.
What does that have to do with your narrative to this point?
And why does it have to mean just that rather than any
of a hundred other things it could easily mean--if we
ignore the fact that it obviously only means exactly what
it says, that the addressee will not enter the country
that others who die do--for a reason we'll soon be told.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The line hints at the bawdy sense of 'small
death' (orgasm);  i.e. the Queen will not
enjoy this, if she is relying on poetry for her
immortality.
There is no sane reason to believe there's anything
bawdy about this line.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
12.  When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
These lines have a scolding tone (which
became more strident in sonnets 1-17,
written a few years later).  Like the rest of
the nation, he desperately wanted her to
marry and have an heir, and grow in 'loins'
and in family lines of descent, rather than
just in lines of poetry.  'Eternal' is again
used ambiguously.
Why not give us your word for word explication?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
13.      So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
The two 'long's of the couplet pun on the
'long couple' (Darnley and Mary both being
remarkable for their height and slenderness).
How does that work in English, Paul? What does that
make the two lines "really" say (aside from their nursery
rhyme meaning for the uninitiated)? "So long couple as mean
can breathe or eyes can see?"
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
" . .  her height, when described, is always commented on with
admiration. This may be in part due to the fact that, although tall,
Mary had extremely delicate bones . . . combined to give an
appearance of graceful elongation: it also made her an excellent
dancer . .  in a manner calculated to dazzle the public eye at a
time when the personal image of a sovereign was of marked
consequence. . ."  (op. cit. page 77.)
" . .  It was Darnley's height which was considered at the time to
be his main physical characteristic -- had not Elizabeth called him
'yon long lad' when she pointed him out to Melville? -- and he
was fortunate in being slender with it, or as Melville put it, 'long
and small, even and straight'. His elegant physique could hardly
fail to commend itself to Mary for two reasons. Firstly, beautiful
as she was, Mary was nevertheless tall enough to tower over most
of her previous companions, including her first husband Francis.
The psychological implications of this height can only be guessed
at, but as Darnley was certainly well over six feet one inch . . "
 (op. cit. page 221.)
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
13.      So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
The line again alludes to the Riccio murder --
with 'breathe' being partly ironic, or used in
the sense of 'breathe out' (through multiple
stab wounds)
This is totally insane. "So long couple as men can breathe out
through Riccio's multiple stab wounds or eyes can see?"
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and/or OED 16: 'to lance [a vein]
so as to give blood'.  The poet believes that
more deaths likely to follow (including that
of Darnley?) in the desperate confusion of
Scottish politics, created largely by Mary's
intemperate decision to marry him.  The future
is uncertain: 'so long . .  as eyes can see'.
There is probably a pun on 'eyes/Ays', with
(Och) 'Ays' = Scotsmen.
14.      So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
I am missing something in the final line or
in the couplet.  However, the scolding tone
continues.  Is immortal life in poetry all she
wants -- even if she assumes that she can
trust the poet's promises?
The first line of the couplet may allude to the
Scottish king;  the second to its queen.  The
poet expects her to survive; she is the
(undeclared) apparent heir.  So long as she
lives, Elizabeth's throne is safe.  (The English
would never remove Elizabeth while Mary
was next in line.)  In another sense, Mary
was carrying a child.  That 'life' would, in due
course, succeed Elizabeth.
    NOTE on "The Queen of Hearts"
I believe that it is quite probable that the
   "The Queen of Hearts baked some tarts
    All on a Summer's day . . "
came from the events of the second half
of 1565, and that it is the poet's source of
"a Summer's day".
There's no reason to believe "a summer's day" came
from the nursery rhyme. So the sonnet and the rhyme had
the same phrase, so what?
I'm ending here, for now. I can't say what's wrong with
your explication until you give one, Paul. What I can say is
that your various thoughts about the meaning of the lines
are worthless unless you can show in detail how what the
poem says indicates your meaning.
--Bob
Paul Crowley
2014-10-20 15:20:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Grumman
I had all kinds of trouble finding this, but finally did. It once again
refutes his insane claim that no one has presented an argument
against his interpretation of Sonnet 18.
I'm sure I never said that. Obviously plenty of Strats
have said something profound, like "I disagree" and
perhaps even a little more to the extent that they
might have wanted to call it 'an argument'. Dominic
Hughes wanted more evidence that 'somers' were
long thin poles, and he did not accept that their use
as masts on ships provided that.

I would have said something like " . . no one has
presented a _serious_ argument against my
interpretation of Sonnet 18 . ."
Post by Bob Grumman
It's from a thread with other arguments of mine and arguments of
others, a the usual denials by Paul. But I think he admits in one post
that he changed his interpretation because of something I said.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topitopic/humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare/KImh0GU67Sg
I could just re-post my reply in that thread, but the
point you missed then, and miss now, is that I am
making a very specific claim about the exact
historical circumstances under which this Sonnet
was written. I tell you who wrote it, when, why,
where and for whom.

To contest such a presentation, you should be
able to show that EACH of the above (the who,
when, why, where, and 'for whom') is false, in
that (a) the words of the Sonnet (as I read them)
do not match the broad circumstances, nor the
detailed facts of early 1566, and
(b) that my reading imposes hopeless distortions
on the words of the Sonnet.

Your claim is that the Sonnet has no more to do
with the events in Scotland in early 1566 (as seen
at the time from London) than it has to do with the
siege of Troy, or the Crossing of Rubicon, or the
Parting of the Red Sea, or the relationship
between Barack and Michelle Obama. So, in
principle, you have a very easy task. It is very
easily done for any other reading of the Sonnet
which tries to be more than an account of its
superficial banalities. Some other exegetists
claim to date Sonnets fairly exactly (e.g. Hank
Whittemore) but their claims rarely depend on a
close reading of any particular sonnet, and their
accounts almost never go beyond banalities, or
the most banal of assertions. When they do try
to relate the words of a Sonnet to some facts of
history, the claim is invariably laughable.

Your 'critique' does no more than scratch at the
edges. As I said in my reply, you took an early
version of my exegesis . . . ignoring later, much
more highly developed ones, and your 'criticisms'
are trivial, full of logical errors and often factually
mistaken as well. You detest ambiguity, and seem
to regard the suggestion of its use as contrary to
every principle of poetry. Another characteristic is
your refusal to accept that the poet made bawdy
puns -- which is quite extraordinary, given that
nearly every Stratfordian commentator after
~1960 has readily accepted many of them.

Instead you quote your own 'biblical' arguments
". . . the Sonnets are addressed to a male Fair
Youf" and therefore any other kind of reading is
necessarily inherently false and heretical.

Given the context, and how you should be able to
destroy a fundamentally-mistaken exegesis, none
of these are serious arguments.


Paul.
Post by Bob Grumman
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
This is one of Paul Crowley's posts about Sonnet 18 that he
says I never presented an argument against.
I, of course, have, many times, but Paul refuses to accept that
I have. Either I can't quickly give him a pertinent URL or I
give him one containing something I think is an argument
but he doesn't, and he of course gets to decide.
Anyway, I'm away from home without much to do today
but able to get on the Internet, so I thought I'd revisit Paul's
truly insane "exegesis" of Sonnet 18, a a little at a time..
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
The comparison of a person to a summer's
day is extraordinary -- almost magical. It is
commonly regarded as a supreme example of
Shakespeare's poetic imagination -- as, indeed,
it is. Helen Vendler writes: "What is the most
beautiful thing, the 'summum bonum', in an
(English) world? -- A summer's day."
The poet was teasing us. He knew that was
how we would read it (and the whole sonnet)
but in his mind he had other aspects of "a
summer's day". One is the transient nature of
its existence. Think of it in the context of his
adored's beauty. Would she have wished that
last but a day?
The comparison is far from 'pure imagination'.
Shakespeare's genius lay in knowing how to
recruit into his poetry images he encountered
in other circumstances. The poet and his
addressee knew of another beauty, that did
gloriously, but briefly, flower; and it is to this
he asks: 'Shall I compare thee . . ?'.
It is not too difficult to guess to whom the
phrase 'Summers day' refers -- once we know
that the addressee of the sonnet was Queen
Elizabeth, and to whom she was, at one stage
in her reign, constantly compared.
But there is no indication whatever that this sonnet is
addressed to Queen Elizabeth. There is, in fact, no
clue whatever as to whom this sonnet was addressed, nor
even the sex of that person.
It is part of a sequence, so if we want to guess whom it's to,
we could reasonably see if there's a clue in the sonnets
preceding it. Those, to every sane person who reads them,
are addressed to a young man, not a woman, so not to
Queen Elizabeth.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I strongly suspect that there was a particular
and immediate source for 'a Summers day',
and I describe a possibility in a note below.
So far the Crowley Reading is "Shall I compare you,
Elizabeth, to a summer's day (to be identified later)?"
Except that the sonnet could be addressed to just about
anybody, and there's no reason to assume it was
addressed to Elizabeth, there is nothing wrong with it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Of course, Elizabeth comes off much more
favourably in this comparison. The poet
meant 'lovely' to be taken by his addressee
in the usual sense, but he had others also in
mind. 'Lovely' had a wider range of meanings
'loving, kind, affectionate'; 'amorous'; and
'friendly, amicable' (see OED). Taken in this
sense, the comparison was barbed.
Recent events had shown that the quality
Mary, Queen of Scots, most conspicuously
lacked was temperance. The poet may have
been referring back to elaborate plans for a
meeting between the two queens about four
Queen Elizabeth was known to throw tantrums. Not
everyone would deem her particularly temperate. Again,
though, the sonneteer might have. There is nothing to
indicate that Mary is in the poem, I should add. Crowley
just sticks her in.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"In London the prospect of the encounter was considered
sufficiently certain for the actual masques to be devised which
were to entertain the two queens, the chosen allegorical theme
being the punishment of False Report and Discord by Jupiter
at the request of Prudence and Temperance. The detailed and
long-winded plans for the masques -- three nights of them -- were
vetted personally by Cecil and much courtly care was exercised
in the delicate task of balancing the allegorical compliments to
both royal ladies . . " (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS* page 168)
Lots of masques, plays, poems, romance, pamphlets, sermons, etc.
were about prudence and temperance. There's no reason whatever
to claim any particular one of them had anything to do with this
sonnet.
Note that so far Crowely has provided no word for word explication of
the poem.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
This sonnet was written around April 1566
after the first 'rough patch' endured by Mary
-- the murder of David Riccio (on 9 March)
by her husband, King Henry (Darnley), Lord
Ruthven and several more of the Protestant
Lot os people experience "rough patches." It is ridiculously
arbitrary to maintain that the word, "rough," in this context
has anything to do with any particular rough patch. It is clearly
used merely to indicate that a summer day is not necessarily
wholly serene.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
" . . a few minutes later there was a far more astonishing apparition
up the staircase -- Patrick Lord Ruthven, with a steel cap on, and
with his armour showing through his gown, burning-eyed and pale
from the illness of which he was generally thought to be dying on
his sick-bed in a house close to Holyrood. So amazing was his
emergence at the queen's supper party, that the first reaction of
those present was that he was actually delirious, and had somehow
felt himself pursued, in his fever, by the spectre of one of his
victims.
[ as in Macbeth -- PC ] Ruthven -- who did in fact die three months
after these events took place -- was a highly unsavoury character,
popularly supposed to be a warlock or male witch, or at any rate in
Knox's phrase to 'use enchantment'. However, his first words left the
queen in no doubt as to what had brought this death's head to her
feast. 'Let it please your Majesty,' said Ruthven, 'that yonder man
David come forth of your privy-chamber where he hath been overlong.'
Mary replied with astonishment that Riccio was there at her own royal
wish, and asked Ruthven whether he had taken leave of his senses. . ."
(op. cit. page 252.)
So what?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
'May' is (or was until recently) a common
abbreviation for 'Mary'. 'Rough winds' is
based on 'Ruth-ven'. 'Ruth' was a contemporary
Scottish form of 'rough' (see OED under 'ruth',
'routh' and 'rough'); the poet takes 'ven' as
based on 'vent' = 'wind' in French (pronounced
without the 't').
Another sense is that some windy (or
wordy) persons had turned rough.
'Parole, parole, nothing but words. The Scots will boast but
rarely perform their brags.' Mary took the same line. Melville
tried to warn her also of what was going on . . . Mary replied
that something of the sort had also come to her own ears, but
she had paid no attention since 'our countrymen were well-
wordy' . ." (op. cit. page 249.)
There is a minor pun on 'darling/Darnley'
('darling Darnley' had highly effeminate looks
and had been young and pretty enough, at
least until recently).
"Darling" is not a pun for "Darnley"--neither syllable of
"Darnley" matches either of "darling."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
The poet also intended bawdy puns. The
present tense in line 3 suggests that Mary was
currently enjoying vigorous sexual relations --
(possibly with Riccio). 'Darling buds' refers
in the political sense to the infant in her womb,
and in the bawdy one to her breasts; similarly
'shake' and 'rough winds' (in the sense of
'windings') alludes to sexual intercourse. It
was still possible for our poet to joke about the
intensity of Mary's passion for Darnley (and
Riccio?) and to speculate on the nature of their
love-making.
The line is an astonishing combination of the
meteorological /horticultural and the political,
both set against a gloriously bawdy image of
the entwined royal couple writhing in passion.
Fine. Give us the word for word paraphrase of it. Can you?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'All too short a date' refers to the sudden end
of David Riccio in both the obvious sense and
in other ways.
Your narrative to this point seems to be saying that Elizabeth
is more temperate than Mary, whose get banged by Ruthven What
does "the sudden end" of Riccio have to do with this.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
His shortness of stature and his
ugliness were well-known. Mary was remarkably
tall to those times, and Darnley was even taller.)
Also the poet commonly bawdily puns on 'all' =
'awl' = 'penis'. He may be implying (in 'all too
short') that Riccio's penis was too short for the
Queen.
'Date' was a Scottish word: 'to pet, fondle, caress,
make much of'. See OED under 'daut'. (This
sense may, or may not, be related to the modern
usage of 'date' as a romantic appointment.)
Mary's summer passion for Darnley had been
remarkably intense but, in the nature of such
things, had a short lease of life. As Burghley
famously remarked: "Nuptiae Carnales a laetitia
incipiunt et in luctu terminantur."
There is something in 'Sommers lease' that
I cannot see. (John Somers was a high
ambassadorial official, and may have had
dealings with Riccio.)
A broader sense of line 4 may also be
addressed to Elizabeth. If she was to have an
heir of her body, she needed to get on with it.
So, paraphrase the line. I have no idea what you're
saying it means for you, so I can't critique it, except to
say that pulling words out of your rigidniplex concerning
Elizabeth and Mary whenever there's any kind of
possible connection to a word in the line in not
responsible paraphrasing.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
The 'eye of heaven' is the sun -- a symbol of
royalty. Here the poet beautifully exploits the
bawdy potential of a 'hot' and a royal 'eye'
opening into a royal 'heaven' -- alluding, of
course, to the intensity of Mary's sexual
passion in her brief marriage with Darnley,
In that case, the poem's speaker is calling Mary "heaven."
How can he then think Elizabeth superior to her?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and the allegations of an affair with Riccio. 'Shines'
may reflect the sense of 'taking a shine' -- even
if the OED does not record this until 1848.
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
Line 5 refers to the (Queen in a sexual passion).
There's no reference to "queen" in line 5, nor
to a "king" in line 6. The two lines are clearly about
the same entity, "summer"--sometimes his eye
is too hot and often is his complexion dimmed, yet
you claim line 5 is about Mary, line 6 about some
male king--Darnley? Hence, you have one of the two
lines wrong.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Line 6 refers to the King. There may be bawdy
allusions here, but "dimm'd" would refer to his
'eclipse' by Riccio, to his bouts of furious anger,
to his frequent illnesses (probably from syphilis,
pock-marking his face), to his regular shortages
of cash, and to his various 'changes' in religion.
'Complexion' often meant religious affiliation,
with 'gold' being associated with the Papacy
Darnley had been brought up a Catholic but he
started off in Scotland as Protestant (absenting
himself from the nuptial mass for his wedding);
he then seemed to revert to Catholicism carrying
lighted tapers through the streets of Edinburgh
at the feast of the Purification of the Virgin Mary
on 2 Feb 1566 -- a notably Catholic gesture --
which would have lit up his complexion. That
light was then dimmed by his plot with the
Protestant nobles to murder Riccio and seize
power from Mary. She then persuaded him to
join with her in the suppression of those same
nobles.
You are arbitrarily pinning meanings to words. Without
giving a word for word explication.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Darnley was addressed as 'King Henry' but he
was essentially only a consort. Even though
he had little interest in administration, he
constantly demanded the 'crown matrimonial'
which would grant him power equal to Mary
while she lived and would have continued
after her death if he survived her. Mary and
the Scottish parliament would not grant this,
leading to rows about the manner in which
they should sign documents and, in particular,
on the way their images should be presented
on coins.
There's nothing in the line to link it to Darnley.
Or anything but a summer's day.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"Certainly her violent infatuation for Darnley had not survived
the onsets of pregnancy, and she could after all no longer share
the pleasures of hunting and hawking which both had once
enjoyed so keenly. On 20 December, Bedford from Berwick
reported that, 'The Lord Darnley followeth his pastimes more
than the Queen is content withal; what it will breed hereafter
I cannot say, but in the meantime there is some misliking
between them.' On 25 December Randolph noted that 'a while
ago there was nothing but King and Queen, now the Queen's
husband is the common word. He was wont in all writings to be
first named: now he is placed second.' The relative placing of
the two names Henry and Mary was at the heart of the
mysterious matter of the silver 'ryal', a new denomination of
coin introduced shortly after their marriage at a nominal value
of thirty shillings. This 'ryal' showed the heads of Mary and
Darnley facing each other on one side, and on the other in
Latin a reference to their marriage - 'Whom God has joined
together, let no man put asunder'. In December Randolph also
reported that this coin had been withdrawn from circulation in
Scotland, because the names of the royal pair were engraved on
it in an unusual order as HENRICUS & MARIA D. GRA. R & R.
SCOTORUM. Randolph represented Mary as now regretting
the prominence given to Darnley's name, which for once
preceded that of the queen. " (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS*
page 240)
The 'dimming of the gold complexion' is
probably also a reference to the dispute
about these images, with the poet thinking
of gold coins.
Hey, maybe he had a gold tooth, too.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
The decline of 'faire from faire' refers mainly to
the deterioration of the royal marriage.
Why. And how does that fit your narrative? Can you
explicate this line, rather than just float vague opinions
about it?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Botj Mary and Darnley were known for their striking
beauty. ("In these portraits Darnley appears at
first sight like a young god, with his golden hair,
his perfectly shaped face with its short straight
nose, the neat oval chin . ." -- op. cit. page 220.)
It would also refer to the erosion of beauty with
age and illness, with particular reference to that
of Darnley, Mary and Elizabeth.
There may be other allusions as well, with a
pun on 'Ver' being likely; a 'Venus & Adonis'
relationship (of some sort) between Oxford
and the Queen is likely.
No effective poet is going to clutter a poem with
the multitude of incongruous images you think this
one does.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Both Mary and Darnley were known for their
addiction to card-playing and gambling -- as
was not uncommon among courtiers of the
day. 'Chance' or 'hazard' was a common card
game played by courtiers. The poet is
suggesting that a major reason for the decline
in the marriage was Darnley's generally
dissolute behaviour, particularly during
Mary's pregnancy.
Another reason for the decline was 'natures
changing course' -- where 'nature' is Mary (or
Elizabeth, or women generally). 'Untrimmed'
alludes viciously to the knife used to 'trim'
Riccio. (He had ~60 stab wounds, the fatal
ones probably from Darnley's dagger, wielded
by a Douglas relation.)
Fair things decline due to gambling, Mary's changeableness,
which trims Riccio? But the poem is saying every fair sometimes
declines; it is not alluding to any particular fair.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'Untrimmed' is also IMO used in a political
sense (even if the OED's first report in this
sense is 1682). OED 5 'trimmer' = 'one who
inclines to each of two opposite sides as
interest dictates'. Darnley seemed to exist
by 'trimming', and Mary had shown plenty of
devious 'trimming' in order to escape from her
captors.
If you are a trimmer, you don't become "untrimmed."
The linguistics are wrong.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'Untrimmed' also had a bawdy sense. 'To
trim' was to deflower or possess a woman.
Right: cram some bawdry into it whether it fits
in any way or not. Some poets, you should know, though
favor keeping focus.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
AARON (TA V.1.89) . . .
'Twas her two sons that murder'd Bassianus;
They cut thy sister's tongue and ravish'd her
And cut her hands and trimm'd her as thou saw'st.
LUCIUS O detestable villain! call'st thou that trimming?
AARON Why, she was wash'd and cut and trimm'd, and 'twas
Trim sport for them that had the doing of it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
"Trimmed" in one, and "untrimmed" in the other. Sounds to
me (aside from one of Art's lunatic word-games) like the fairs
of line 7 are given their virginity in line 8, untrimming having
to be the oppositre of trimming (for users of English).
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The poet is also alluding to Elizabeth's
behaviour since coming to the throne -- of
turning down numerous proposals of marriage.
He is, as ever, warning of the danger of this
conduct -- faire England will decline its
'untrimmed' faire queen.
This interpretation would work if you could show the poem was
to Elizabeth, and that line 7 referred to her and not to Mary.
You don't spell out your narrative, though, so we can't know which
it does, and how.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
The sestet focuses more on the English
Queen, but with allusions to Scotland, as
in 'fade' which was a Scottish form of 'feud'
at the time (see OED). States and monarchies
did not fade away; but they were destroyed
by feuds.
'Eternal' had another sense: a derogatory one
(which it still retains) for a period of time that
has lasted much longer than it should. Here
Oxford is being sarcastic. He shared the
common feeling that the duration of Elizabeth's
'summer' had become unconscionable. Mary's
pregnancy had emphasised the lack of
seriousness in Elizabeth's conduct in the
1560s, in particular the slow, reluctant manner
in which she 'sought' a husband.
If he thought her summer too long, why did he say
it would not fade? Oh, yes, sarcasm. If the poem says
anything you don't think it should, it proves sarcasm is
going on, even though there's no warning of it, no set-up.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
'Owe' also meant 'own' -- and our poet must
necessarily pun on it. The 'faire' that Elizabeth
both owned and owed was her virginity -- and
through that -- her realm. The poet is implying
that her continued possession of former will
destroy that of the latter. She owed England
duties -- which she was not performing.
Right. Assume the line means the opposite of what
it says do to sarcasm. the problem with that is that
you can make it say anything you want it to that way.
I could say the poem is in praise of Mary, in which
case line 2 is sarcastically saying Elizabeth is the
lovelier of the two, which wasn't true. Etc.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
There is a reflection back to the dreadful
events in Scotland. The poet hopes that his
own queen will never see violent death
visited on her favourites in her presence.
What does that have to do with your narrative to this point?
And why does it have to mean just that rather than any
of a hundred other things it could easily mean--if we
ignore the fact that it obviously only means exactly what
it says, that the addressee will not enter the country
that others who die do--for a reason we'll soon be told.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The line hints at the bawdy sense of 'small
death' (orgasm); i.e. the Queen will not
enjoy this, if she is relying on poetry for her
immortality.
There is no sane reason to believe there's anything
bawdy about this line.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
These lines have a scolding tone (which
became more strident in sonnets 1-17,
written a few years later). Like the rest of
the nation, he desperately wanted her to
marry and have an heir, and grow in 'loins'
and in family lines of descent, rather than
just in lines of poetry. 'Eternal' is again
used ambiguously.
Why not give us your word for word explication?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
The two 'long's of the couplet pun on the
'long couple' (Darnley and Mary both being
remarkable for their height and slenderness).
How does that work in English, Paul? What does that
make the two lines "really" say (aside from their nursery
rhyme meaning for the uninitiated)? "So long couple as mean
can breathe or eyes can see?"
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
" . . her height, when described, is always commented on with
admiration. This may be in part due to the fact that, although tall,
Mary had extremely delicate bones . . . combined to give an
appearance of graceful elongation: it also made her an excellent
dancer . . in a manner calculated to dazzle the public eye at a
time when the personal image of a sovereign was of marked
consequence. . ." (op. cit. page 77.)
" . . It was Darnley's height which was considered at the time to
be his main physical characteristic -- had not Elizabeth called him
'yon long lad' when she pointed him out to Melville? -- and he
was fortunate in being slender with it, or as Melville put it, 'long
and small, even and straight'. His elegant physique could hardly
fail to commend itself to Mary for two reasons. Firstly, beautiful
as she was, Mary was nevertheless tall enough to tower over most
of her previous companions, including her first husband Francis.
The psychological implications of this height can only be guessed
at, but as Darnley was certainly well over six feet one inch . . "
(op. cit. page 221.)
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
The line again alludes to the Riccio murder --
with 'breathe' being partly ironic, or used in
the sense of 'breathe out' (through multiple
stab wounds)
This is totally insane. "So long couple as men can breathe out
through Riccio's multiple stab wounds or eyes can see?"
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and/or OED 16: 'to lance [a vein]
so as to give blood'. The poet believes that
more deaths likely to follow (including that
of Darnley?) in the desperate confusion of
Scottish politics, created largely by Mary's
intemperate decision to marry him. The future
is uncertain: 'so long . . as eyes can see'.
There is probably a pun on 'eyes/Ays', with
(Och) 'Ays' = Scotsmen.
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
I am missing something in the final line or
in the couplet. However, the scolding tone
continues. Is immortal life in poetry all she
wants -- even if she assumes that she can
trust the poet's promises?
The first line of the couplet may allude to the
Scottish king; the second to its queen. The
poet expects her to survive; she is the
(undeclared) apparent heir. So long as she
lives, Elizabeth's throne is safe. (The English
would never remove Elizabeth while Mary
was next in line.) In another sense, Mary
was carrying a child. That 'life' would, in due
course, succeed Elizabeth.
NOTE on "The Queen of Hearts"
I believe that it is quite probable that the
"The Queen of Hearts baked some tarts
All on a Summer's day . . "
came from the events of the second half
of 1565, and that it is the poet's source of
"a Summer's day".
There's no reason to believe "a summer's day" came
from the nursery rhyme. So the sonnet and the rhyme had
the same phrase, so what?
I'm ending here, for now. I can't say what's wrong with
your explication until you give one, Paul. What I can say is
that your various thoughts about the meaning of the lines
are worthless unless you can show in detail how what the
poem says indicates your meaning.
--Bob
Bob Grumman
2014-10-20 23:26:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Bob Grumman
I had all kinds of trouble finding this, but finally did. It once again
refutes his insane claim that no one has presented an argument
against his interpretation of Sonnet 18.
I'm sure I never said that. Obviously plenty of Strats
have said something profound, like "I disagree" and
perhaps even a little more to the extent that they
might have wanted to call it 'an argument'. Dominic
Hughes wanted more evidence that 'somers' were
long thin poles, and he did not accept that their use
as masts on ships provided that.
I would have said something like " . . no one has
presented a _serious_ argument against my
interpretation of Sonnet 18 . ."
Post by Bob Grumman
It's from a thread with other arguments of mine and arguments of
others, a the usual denials by Paul. But I think he admits in one post
that he changed his interpretation because of something I said.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topitopic/humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare/KImh0GU67Sg
I could just re-post my reply in that thread, but the
point you missed then, and miss now, is that I am
making a very specific claim about the exact
historical circumstances under which this Sonnet
was written. I tell you who wrote it, when, why,
where and for whom.
To contest such a presentation, you should be
able to show that EACH of the above (the who,
when, why, where, and 'for whom') is false, in
that (a) the words of the Sonnet (as I read them)
do not match the broad circumstances, nor the
detailed facts of early 1566, and
(b) that my reading imposes hopeless distortions
on the words of the Sonnet.
Your claim is that the Sonnet has no more to do
with the events in Scotland in early 1566 (as seen
at the time from London) than it has to do with the
siege of Troy, or the Crossing of Rubicon, or the
Parting of the Red Sea, or the relationship
between Barack and Michelle Obama. So, in
principle, you have a very easy task. It is very
easily done for any other reading of the Sonnet
which tries to be more than an account of its
superficial banalities. Some other exegetists
claim to date Sonnets fairly exactly (e.g. Hank
Whittemore) but their claims rarely depend on a
close reading of any particular sonnet, and their
accounts almost never go beyond banalities, or
the most banal of assertions. When they do try
to relate the words of a Sonnet to some facts of
history, the claim is invariably laughable.
Your 'critique' does no more than scratch at the
edges. As I said in my reply, you took an early
version of my exegesis . . . ignoring later, much
more highly developed ones, and your 'criticisms'
are trivial, full of logical errors and often factually
mistaken as well. You detest ambiguity, and seem
to regard the suggestion of its use as contrary to
every principle of poetry. Another characteristic is
your refusal to accept that the poet made bawdy
puns -- which is quite extraordinary, given that
nearly every Stratfordian commentator after
~1960 has readily accepted many of them.
Instead you quote your own 'biblical' arguments
". . . the Sonnets are addressed to a male Fair
Youf" and therefore any other kind of reading is
necessarily inherently false and heretical.
Given the context, and how you should be able to
destroy a fundamentally-mistaken exegesis, none
of these are serious arguments.
Paul.
Post by Bob Grumman
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
This is one of Paul Crowley's posts about Sonnet 18 that he
says I never presented an argument against.
I, of course, have, many times, but Paul refuses to accept that
I have. Either I can't quickly give him a pertinent URL or I
give him one containing something I think is an argument
but he doesn't, and he of course gets to decide.
Anyway, I'm away from home without much to do today
but able to get on the Internet, so I thought I'd revisit Paul's
truly insane "exegesis" of Sonnet 18, a a little at a time..
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
The comparison of a person to a summer's
day is extraordinary -- almost magical. It is
commonly regarded as a supreme example of
Shakespeare's poetic imagination -- as, indeed,
it is. Helen Vendler writes: "What is the most
beautiful thing, the 'summum bonum', in an
(English) world? -- A summer's day."
The poet was teasing us. He knew that was
how we would read it (and the whole sonnet)
but in his mind he had other aspects of "a
summer's day". One is the transient nature of
its existence. Think of it in the context of his
adored's beauty. Would she have wished that
last but a day?
The comparison is far from 'pure imagination'.
Shakespeare's genius lay in knowing how to
recruit into his poetry images he encountered
in other circumstances. The poet and his
addressee knew of another beauty, that did
gloriously, but briefly, flower; and it is to this
he asks: 'Shall I compare thee . . ?'.
It is not too difficult to guess to whom the
phrase 'Summers day' refers -- once we know
that the addressee of the sonnet was Queen
Elizabeth, and to whom she was, at one stage
in her reign, constantly compared.
But there is no indication whatever that this sonnet is
addressed to Queen Elizabeth. There is, in fact, no
clue whatever as to whom this sonnet was addressed, nor
even the sex of that person.
It is part of a sequence, so if we want to guess whom it's to,
we could reasonably see if there's a clue in the sonnets
preceding it. Those, to every sane person who reads them,
are addressed to a young man, not a woman, so not to
Queen Elizabeth.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I strongly suspect that there was a particular
and immediate source for 'a Summers day',
and I describe a possibility in a note below.
So far the Crowley Reading is "Shall I compare you,
Elizabeth, to a summer's day (to be identified later)?"
Except that the sonnet could be addressed to just about
anybody, and there's no reason to assume it was
addressed to Elizabeth, there is nothing wrong with it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Of course, Elizabeth comes off much more
favourably in this comparison. The poet
meant 'lovely' to be taken by his addressee
in the usual sense, but he had others also in
mind. 'Lovely' had a wider range of meanings
'loving, kind, affectionate'; 'amorous'; and
'friendly, amicable' (see OED). Taken in this
sense, the comparison was barbed.
Recent events had shown that the quality
Mary, Queen of Scots, most conspicuously
lacked was temperance. The poet may have
been referring back to elaborate plans for a
meeting between the two queens about four
Queen Elizabeth was known to throw tantrums. Not
everyone would deem her particularly temperate. Again,
though, the sonneteer might have. There is nothing to
indicate that Mary is in the poem, I should add. Crowley
just sticks her in.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"In London the prospect of the encounter was considered
sufficiently certain for the actual masques to be devised which
were to entertain the two queens, the chosen allegorical theme
being the punishment of False Report and Discord by Jupiter
at the request of Prudence and Temperance. The detailed and
long-winded plans for the masques -- three nights of them -- were
vetted personally by Cecil and much courtly care was exercised
in the delicate task of balancing the allegorical compliments to
both royal ladies . . " (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS* page 168)
Lots of masques, plays, poems, romance, pamphlets, sermons, etc.
were about prudence and temperance. There's no reason whatever
to claim any particular one of them had anything to do with this
sonnet.
Note that so far Crowely has provided no word for word explication of
the poem.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
This sonnet was written around April 1566
after the first 'rough patch' endured by Mary
-- the murder of David Riccio (on 9 March)
by her husband, King Henry (Darnley), Lord
Ruthven and several more of the Protestant
Lot os people experience "rough patches." It is ridiculously
arbitrary to maintain that the word, "rough," in this context
has anything to do with any particular rough patch. It is clearly
used merely to indicate that a summer day is not necessarily
wholly serene.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
" . . a few minutes later there was a far more astonishing apparition
up the staircase -- Patrick Lord Ruthven, with a steel cap on, and
with his armour showing through his gown, burning-eyed and pale
from the illness of which he was generally thought to be dying on
his sick-bed in a house close to Holyrood. So amazing was his
emergence at the queen's supper party, that the first reaction of
those present was that he was actually delirious, and had somehow
felt himself pursued, in his fever, by the spectre of one of his
victims.
[ as in Macbeth -- PC ] Ruthven -- who did in fact die three months
after these events took place -- was a highly unsavoury character,
popularly supposed to be a warlock or male witch, or at any rate in
Knox's phrase to 'use enchantment'. However, his first words left the
queen in no doubt as to what had brought this death's head to her
feast. 'Let it please your Majesty,' said Ruthven, 'that yonder man
David come forth of your privy-chamber where he hath been overlong.'
Mary replied with astonishment that Riccio was there at her own royal
wish, and asked Ruthven whether he had taken leave of his senses. . ."
(op. cit. page 252.)
So what?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
'May' is (or was until recently) a common
abbreviation for 'Mary'. 'Rough winds' is
based on 'Ruth-ven'. 'Ruth' was a contemporary
Scottish form of 'rough' (see OED under 'ruth',
'routh' and 'rough'); the poet takes 'ven' as
based on 'vent' = 'wind' in French (pronounced
without the 't').
Another sense is that some windy (or
wordy) persons had turned rough.
'Parole, parole, nothing but words. The Scots will boast but
rarely perform their brags.' Mary took the same line. Melville
tried to warn her also of what was going on . . . Mary replied
that something of the sort had also come to her own ears, but
she had paid no attention since 'our countrymen were well-
wordy' . ." (op. cit. page 249.)
There is a minor pun on 'darling/Darnley'
('darling Darnley' had highly effeminate looks
and had been young and pretty enough, at
least until recently).
"Darling" is not a pun for "Darnley"--neither syllable of
"Darnley" matches either of "darling."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
The poet also intended bawdy puns. The
present tense in line 3 suggests that Mary was
currently enjoying vigorous sexual relations --
(possibly with Riccio). 'Darling buds' refers
in the political sense to the infant in her womb,
and in the bawdy one to her breasts; similarly
'shake' and 'rough winds' (in the sense of
'windings') alludes to sexual intercourse. It
was still possible for our poet to joke about the
intensity of Mary's passion for Darnley (and
Riccio?) and to speculate on the nature of their
love-making.
The line is an astonishing combination of the
meteorological /horticultural and the political,
both set against a gloriously bawdy image of
the entwined royal couple writhing in passion.
Fine. Give us the word for word paraphrase of it. Can you?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'All too short a date' refers to the sudden end
of David Riccio in both the obvious sense and
in other ways.
Your narrative to this point seems to be saying that Elizabeth
is more temperate than Mary, whose get banged by Ruthven What
does "the sudden end" of Riccio have to do with this.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
His shortness of stature and his
ugliness were well-known. Mary was remarkably
tall to those times, and Darnley was even taller.)
Also the poet commonly bawdily puns on 'all' =
'awl' = 'penis'. He may be implying (in 'all too
short') that Riccio's penis was too short for the
Queen.
'Date' was a Scottish word: 'to pet, fondle, caress,
make much of'. See OED under 'daut'. (This
sense may, or may not, be related to the modern
usage of 'date' as a romantic appointment.)
Mary's summer passion for Darnley had been
remarkably intense but, in the nature of such
things, had a short lease of life. As Burghley
famously remarked: "Nuptiae Carnales a laetitia
incipiunt et in luctu terminantur."
There is something in 'Sommers lease' that
I cannot see. (John Somers was a high
ambassadorial official, and may have had
dealings with Riccio.)
A broader sense of line 4 may also be
addressed to Elizabeth. If she was to have an
heir of her body, she needed to get on with it.
So, paraphrase the line. I have no idea what you're
saying it means for you, so I can't critique it, except to
say that pulling words out of your rigidniplex concerning
Elizabeth and Mary whenever there's any kind of
possible connection to a word in the line in not
responsible paraphrasing.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
The 'eye of heaven' is the sun -- a symbol of
royalty. Here the poet beautifully exploits the
bawdy potential of a 'hot' and a royal 'eye'
opening into a royal 'heaven' -- alluding, of
course, to the intensity of Mary's sexual
passion in her brief marriage with Darnley,
In that case, the poem's speaker is calling Mary "heaven."
How can he then think Elizabeth superior to her?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and the allegations of an affair with Riccio. 'Shines'
may reflect the sense of 'taking a shine' -- even
if the OED does not record this until 1848.
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
Line 5 refers to the (Queen in a sexual passion).
There's no reference to "queen" in line 5, nor
to a "king" in line 6. The two lines are clearly about
the same entity, "summer"--sometimes his eye
is too hot and often is his complexion dimmed, yet
you claim line 5 is about Mary, line 6 about some
male king--Darnley? Hence, you have one of the two
lines wrong.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Line 6 refers to the King. There may be bawdy
allusions here, but "dimm'd" would refer to his
'eclipse' by Riccio, to his bouts of furious anger,
to his frequent illnesses (probably from syphilis,
pock-marking his face), to his regular shortages
of cash, and to his various 'changes' in religion.
'Complexion' often meant religious affiliation,
with 'gold' being associated with the Papacy
Darnley had been brought up a Catholic but he
started off in Scotland as Protestant (absenting
himself from the nuptial mass for his wedding);
he then seemed to revert to Catholicism carrying
lighted tapers through the streets of Edinburgh
at the feast of the Purification of the Virgin Mary
on 2 Feb 1566 -- a notably Catholic gesture --
which would have lit up his complexion. That
light was then dimmed by his plot with the
Protestant nobles to murder Riccio and seize
power from Mary. She then persuaded him to
join with her in the suppression of those same
nobles.
You are arbitrarily pinning meanings to words. Without
giving a word for word explication.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Darnley was addressed as 'King Henry' but he
was essentially only a consort. Even though
he had little interest in administration, he
constantly demanded the 'crown matrimonial'
which would grant him power equal to Mary
while she lived and would have continued
after her death if he survived her. Mary and
the Scottish parliament would not grant this,
leading to rows about the manner in which
they should sign documents and, in particular,
on the way their images should be presented
on coins.
There's nothing in the line to link it to Darnley.
Or anything but a summer's day.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"Certainly her violent infatuation for Darnley had not survived
the onsets of pregnancy, and she could after all no longer share
the pleasures of hunting and hawking which both had once
enjoyed so keenly. On 20 December, Bedford from Berwick
reported that, 'The Lord Darnley followeth his pastimes more
than the Queen is content withal; what it will breed hereafter
I cannot say, but in the meantime there is some misliking
between them.' On 25 December Randolph noted that 'a while
ago there was nothing but King and Queen, now the Queen's
husband is the common word. He was wont in all writings to be
first named: now he is placed second.' The relative placing of
the two names Henry and Mary was at the heart of the
mysterious matter of the silver 'ryal', a new denomination of
coin introduced shortly after their marriage at a nominal value
of thirty shillings. This 'ryal' showed the heads of Mary and
Darnley facing each other on one side, and on the other in
Latin a reference to their marriage - 'Whom God has joined
together, let no man put asunder'. In December Randolph also
reported that this coin had been withdrawn from circulation in
Scotland, because the names of the royal pair were engraved on
it in an unusual order as HENRICUS & MARIA D. GRA. R & R.
SCOTORUM. Randolph represented Mary as now regretting
the prominence given to Darnley's name, which for once
preceded that of the queen. " (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS*
page 240)
The 'dimming of the gold complexion' is
probably also a reference to the dispute
about these images, with the poet thinking
of gold coins.
Hey, maybe he had a gold tooth, too.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
The decline of 'faire from faire' refers mainly to
the deterioration of the royal marriage.
Why. And how does that fit your narrative? Can you
explicate this line, rather than just float vague opinions
about it?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Botj Mary and Darnley were known for their striking
beauty. ("In these portraits Darnley appears at
first sight like a young god, with his golden hair,
his perfectly shaped face with its short straight
nose, the neat oval chin . ." -- op. cit. page 220.)
It would also refer to the erosion of beauty with
age and illness, with particular reference to that
of Darnley, Mary and Elizabeth.
There may be other allusions as well, with a
pun on 'Ver' being likely; a 'Venus & Adonis'
relationship (of some sort) between Oxford
and the Queen is likely.
No effective poet is going to clutter a poem with
the multitude of incongruous images you think this
one does.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Both Mary and Darnley were known for their
addiction to card-playing and gambling -- as
was not uncommon among courtiers of the
day. 'Chance' or 'hazard' was a common card
game played by courtiers. The poet is
suggesting that a major reason for the decline
in the marriage was Darnley's generally
dissolute behaviour, particularly during
Mary's pregnancy.
Another reason for the decline was 'natures
changing course' -- where 'nature' is Mary (or
Elizabeth, or women generally). 'Untrimmed'
alludes viciously to the knife used to 'trim'
Riccio. (He had ~60 stab wounds, the fatal
ones probably from Darnley's dagger, wielded
by a Douglas relation.)
Fair things decline due to gambling, Mary's changeableness,
which trims Riccio? But the poem is saying every fair sometimes
declines; it is not alluding to any particular fair.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'Untrimmed' is also IMO used in a political
sense (even if the OED's first report in this
sense is 1682). OED 5 'trimmer' = 'one who
inclines to each of two opposite sides as
interest dictates'. Darnley seemed to exist
by 'trimming', and Mary had shown plenty of
devious 'trimming' in order to escape from her
captors.
If you are a trimmer, you don't become "untrimmed."
The linguistics are wrong.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'Untrimmed' also had a bawdy sense. 'To
trim' was to deflower or possess a woman.
Right: cram some bawdry into it whether it fits
in any way or not. Some poets, you should know, though
favor keeping focus.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
AARON (TA V.1.89) . . .
'Twas her two sons that murder'd Bassianus;
They cut thy sister's tongue and ravish'd her
And cut her hands and trimm'd her as thou saw'st.
LUCIUS O detestable villain! call'st thou that trimming?
AARON Why, she was wash'd and cut and trimm'd, and 'twas
Trim sport for them that had the doing of it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
"Trimmed" in one, and "untrimmed" in the other. Sounds to
me (aside from one of Art's lunatic word-games) like the fairs
of line 7 are given their virginity in line 8, untrimming having
to be the oppositre of trimming (for users of English).
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The poet is also alluding to Elizabeth's
behaviour since coming to the throne -- of
turning down numerous proposals of marriage.
He is, as ever, warning of the danger of this
conduct -- faire England will decline its
'untrimmed' faire queen.
This interpretation would work if you could show the poem was
to Elizabeth, and that line 7 referred to her and not to Mary.
You don't spell out your narrative, though, so we can't know which
it does, and how.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
The sestet focuses more on the English
Queen, but with allusions to Scotland, as
in 'fade' which was a Scottish form of 'feud'
at the time (see OED). States and monarchies
did not fade away; but they were destroyed
by feuds.
'Eternal' had another sense: a derogatory one
(which it still retains) for a period of time that
has lasted much longer than it should. Here
Oxford is being sarcastic. He shared the
common feeling that the duration of Elizabeth's
'summer' had become unconscionable. Mary's
pregnancy had emphasised the lack of
seriousness in Elizabeth's conduct in the
1560s, in particular the slow, reluctant manner
in which she 'sought' a husband.
If he thought her summer too long, why did he say
it would not fade? Oh, yes, sarcasm. If the poem says
anything you don't think it should, it proves sarcasm is
going on, even though there's no warning of it, no set-up.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
'Owe' also meant 'own' -- and our poet must
necessarily pun on it. The 'faire' that Elizabeth
both owned and owed was her virginity -- and
through that -- her realm. The poet is implying
that her continued possession of former will
destroy that of the latter. She owed England
duties -- which she was not performing.
Right. Assume the line means the opposite of what
it says do to sarcasm. the problem with that is that
you can make it say anything you want it to that way.
I could say the poem is in praise of Mary, in which
case line 2 is sarcastically saying Elizabeth is the
lovelier of the two, which wasn't true. Etc.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
There is a reflection back to the dreadful
events in Scotland. The poet hopes that his
own queen will never see violent death
visited on her favourites in her presence.
What does that have to do with your narrative to this point?
And why does it have to mean just that rather than any
of a hundred other things it could easily mean--if we
ignore the fact that it obviously only means exactly what
it says, that the addressee will not enter the country
that others who die do--for a reason we'll soon be told.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The line hints at the bawdy sense of 'small
death' (orgasm); i.e. the Queen will not
enjoy this, if she is relying on poetry for her
immortality.
There is no sane reason to believe there's anything
bawdy about this line.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
These lines have a scolding tone (which
became more strident in sonnets 1-17,
written a few years later). Like the rest of
the nation, he desperately wanted her to
marry and have an heir, and grow in 'loins'
and in family lines of descent, rather than
just in lines of poetry. 'Eternal' is again
used ambiguously.
Why not give us your word for word explication?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
The two 'long's of the couplet pun on the
'long couple' (Darnley and Mary both being
remarkable for their height and slenderness).
How does that work in English, Paul? What does that
make the two lines "really" say (aside from their nursery
rhyme meaning for the uninitiated)? "So long couple as mean
can breathe or eyes can see?"
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
" . . her height, when described, is always commented on with
admiration. This may be in part due to the fact that, although tall,
Mary had extremely delicate bones . . . combined to give an
appearance of graceful elongation: it also made her an excellent
dancer . . in a manner calculated to dazzle the public eye at a
time when the personal image of a sovereign was of marked
consequence. . ." (op. cit. page 77.)
" . . It was Darnley's height which was considered at the time to
be his main physical characteristic -- had not Elizabeth called him
'yon long lad' when she pointed him out to Melville? -- and he
was fortunate in being slender with it, or as Melville put it, 'long
and small, even and straight'. His elegant physique could hardly
fail to commend itself to Mary for two reasons. Firstly, beautiful
as she was, Mary was nevertheless tall enough to tower over most
of her previous companions, including her first husband Francis.
The psychological implications of this height can only be guessed
at, but as Darnley was certainly well over six feet one inch . . "
(op. cit. page 221.)
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
The line again alludes to the Riccio murder --
with 'breathe' being partly ironic, or used in
the sense of 'breathe out' (through multiple
stab wounds)
This is totally insane. "So long couple as men can breathe out
through Riccio's multiple stab wounds or eyes can see?"
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and/or OED 16: 'to lance [a vein]
so as to give blood'. The poet believes that
more deaths likely to follow (including that
of Darnley?) in the desperate confusion of
Scottish politics, created largely by Mary's
intemperate decision to marry him. The future
is uncertain: 'so long . . as eyes can see'.
There is probably a pun on 'eyes/Ays', with
(Och) 'Ays' = Scotsmen.
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
I am missing something in the final line or
in the couplet. However, the scolding tone
continues. Is immortal life in poetry all she
wants -- even if she assumes that she can
trust the poet's promises?
The first line of the couplet may allude to the
Scottish king; the second to its queen. The
poet expects her to survive; she is the
(undeclared) apparent heir. So long as she
lives, Elizabeth's throne is safe. (The English
would never remove Elizabeth while Mary
was next in line.) In another sense, Mary
was carrying a child. That 'life' would, in due
course, succeed Elizabeth.
NOTE on "The Queen of Hearts"
I believe that it is quite probable that the
"The Queen of Hearts baked some tarts
All on a Summer's day . . "
came from the events of the second half
of 1565, and that it is the poet's source of
"a Summer's day".
There's no reason to believe "a summer's day" came
from the nursery rhyme. So the sonnet and the rhyme had
the same phrase, so what?
I'm ending here, for now. I can't say what's wrong with
your explication until you give one, Paul. What I can say is
that your various thoughts about the meaning of the lines
are worthless unless you can show in detail how what the
poem says indicates your meaning.
--Bob
The huge problem here is one you refuse to recognize, Paul: it is simply that each of us has a necessarily subjective interpretation of the sonnet, and there is no objective way to determine which is better. I therefore continually suggest finding some outsiders to judge them. You, however, believe that you should be sole judge of the merits of our interpretations. Do you really think that's sane.

Frankly, I think even Roger Stritmatter would agree that my interpretation is more sensible than yours, but he would never go public with an view that might reflect badly on his cause.

Aside from our interpretations of this sonnet, we disagree on how to interpret poetry. Part of my argument against you is with your method, which no one but you and other wacks use (always with much different, often conflicting results). Again, whose method is better is, in the final analysis, subjective.
I have suggested ways of evaluating them; you refuse to, satisfied that you should be sole evaluator. This comes close to being objectively invalid, it being an objective fact that ALL the people with any kind of credibility at all who have written about the sonnet use my method. It is as clearly the method to use in interpreting poetry as Darwinian analysis is in interpreting fossils. although it hasn't been around as long.

Nevertheless, I may again try to show why my interpetation is sane, yours not.
Bob Grumman
2014-10-21 16:14:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Bob Grumman
I had all kinds of trouble finding this, but finally did. It once again
refutes his insane claim that no one has presented an argument
against his interpretation of Sonnet 18.
I'm sure I never said that. Obviously plenty of Strats
have said something profound, like "I disagree" and
perhaps even a little more to the extent that they
might have wanted to call it 'an argument'. Dominic
Hughes wanted more evidence that 'somers' were
long thin poles, and he did not accept that their use
as masts on ships provided that.
I would have said something like " . . no one has
presented a _serious_ argument against my
interpretation of Sonnet 18 . ."
Let's agree that whatever you said, you meant the above. I say my argument was a serious one, whether wrong or right. It follows long-accepted procedures. Aside from that, and in this case an ad hominem argument seems valid: it was presented by Me, a person widely considered to be writing seriously about poetry, as the record shows: recently, for instance, I had a book review AND a study of mathematical poetry's use of metaphor in a peer-reviewed magazine Journal of Mathematics and the Arts. I have written material for reference books about poetry. one of them a general reference book, the Facts-on-File companion to 20th-Century American Poetry. I simply don't see how you can claim what I argued against an interpretation of a poem by you, a person with NO standing whatever as a commentator on poetry, could be too poor to be considered a serious argument.

Question: how would it be possible for a person to argue that your interpretation is invalid without having having you shoot down his argument as unserious? Do you not automatically divided all arguments about what Sonnet 18 means into two groups, a group of serious arguments which contains only your argument, and a group of unserious arguments which contains all others--unless some wack has come out in favor of your argument and I missed it. Is that sane? How is it possible that NO ONE could come up with a serious argument against yours? Do you really believe no one has come up with a serious argument against evolution, or Copernicus? Or Wegener. There were several extremely serious, intelligent arguments against Wegener before all the facts were known.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Bob Grumman
It's from a thread with other arguments of mine and arguments of
others, a the usual denials by Paul. But I think he admits in one post
that he changed his interpretation because of something I said.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topitopic/humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare/KImh0GU67Sg
I have no idea why, but when I thought I was just posting one post containing an argument of mine, the whole thread seems to have been posted.
Post by Paul Crowley
I could just re-post my reply in that thread, but the
point you missed then, and miss now, is that I am
making a very specific claim about the exact
historical circumstances under which this Sonnet
was written. I tell you who wrote it, when, why,
where and for whom.
To contest such a presentation, you should be
able to show that EACH of the above (the who,
when, why, where, and 'for whom') is false, in
that (a) the words of the Sonnet (as I read them)
do not match the broad circumstances, nor the
detailed facts of early 1566, and
(b) that my reading imposes hopeless distortions
on the words of the Sonnet.
As I argued back, for me to have to do all that, you would have to present one bit of hard evidence in support of your scenario. No one could possibly no enough about the time you believe the sonnets are about to be able to contest you scenario. But when I have time, I will try, as an interesting problem, to show what in detail makes your interpretive method absurd. I think few have considered the question since few have ever used your method before.

Not to get into it yet, but to say something: it seems to me that all one need do is present some alternative scenario that makes as much sense to a sane person as yours, and this I will do by simply making assumptions the way you do--deciding, for example, that Southampton was the addressee. I lean toward him as the fair youth but only lean toward him, realizing that unless relevant hard evidence suddenly turns up, there is NO was to know who the fair youth was.

Seems to me someone arguing that hard evidence contradicts your scenario and I, Dom and, I'm sure, others argued--all the explicit references to the youth as male, have to be taken seriously. How c an you say an argument you can only dispose of by claiming a word should be taken as meaning the opposite of its dictionary meaning because it was intended as a joke HAS to be taken as a serious argument.

I guess what I'll be trying to do is define what a serious argument is. I'm not sure yours is, by the way, but would allow it to be taken as such because I'm not sure it doesn't have anything in its favor. I do know that the idea that every important poem must be about real people--so extremely that even something inanimate like summer must be the personification of someone real, not just a season, because what serious poet would compose a poem about nothing more than a stupid season?

You've gotten me going, Paul. I'm sorta writing the reply I just wanted to say I would write here rather than actually write it. I really have better things to do, like read Sabrina's book.
Post by Paul Crowley
Your claim is that the Sonnet has no more to do
with the events in Scotland in early 1566 (as seen
at the time from London) than it has to do with the
siege of Troy, or the Crossing of Rubicon, or the
Parting of the Red Sea, or the relationship
between Barack and Michelle Obama. So, in
principle, you have a very easy task. It is very
easily done for any other reading of the Sonnet
which tries to be more than an account of its
superficial banalities. Some other exegetists
claim to date Sonnets fairly exactly (e.g. Hank
Whittemore) but their claims rarely depend on a
close reading of any particular sonnet, and their
accounts almost never go beyond banalities, or
the most banal of assertions. When they do try
to relate the words of a Sonnet to some facts of
history, the claim is invariably laughable.
EURO Hey, guess what, Paul? I now will admit that I do believ e it has more to do with Elizabeth and Mary, etc., than it does with Troy, etc. BUT I believe it has a hundred times more to do with a summer's day than it does with Liz&Mary. You have a marvelously stupid habit of paraphrasing your opponents' beliefs too poorly to even be considered straw-horsing them.
Post by Paul Crowley
Your 'critique' does no more than scratch at the
edges. As I said in my reply, you took an early
version of my exegesis . . . ignoring later, much
more highly developed ones, and your 'criticisms'
are trivial, full of logical errors and often factually
mistaken as well. You detest ambiguity, and seem
to regard the suggestion of its use as contrary to
every principle of poetry. Another characteristic is
your refusal to accept that the poet made bawdy
puns -- which is quite extraordinary, given that
nearly every Stratfordian commentator after
~1960 has readily accepted many of them.
I'm still waiting for you to cite some famous non-Shakespearean poem that does what you think Sonnet 18 does--i.e., act on its surface as a beautiful poem about some standard poetic theme like the affection of the poet for another, and the undurability of beauty that thousands of people greatly admire and also, beneath the surface, says something meaningful about Important People.
Post by Paul Crowley
Instead you quote your own 'biblical' arguments
". . . the Sonnets are addressed to a male Fair
Youf" and therefore any other kind of reading is
necessarily inherently false and heretical.
I quote the text itself, Paul. The summers day is as summers day not because some god who is quoted in some outside book saying a summers day must be a reference to some skinny Englishman. Even if I did, for you to dismiss my argument as the result of my religion is not proper argumentation: the source of an argument is irrelevant, Paul; what counts, Paul, is whether or not it is valid.
Post by Paul Crowley
Given the context, and how you should be able to
destroy a fundamentally-mistaken exegesis, none
of these are serious arguments.
But the context is not a given. What indicates that we must not take the poem to be about nothing more than what it clearly IS about--a summers day, for instance?
Post by Paul Crowley
Paul.
Post by Bob Grumman
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
This is one of Paul Crowley's posts about Sonnet 18 that he
says I never presented an argument against.
I, of course, have, many times, but Paul refuses to accept that
I have. Either I can't quickly give him a pertinent URL or I
give him one containing something I think is an argument
but he doesn't, and he of course gets to decide.
Anyway, I'm away from home without much to do today
but able to get on the Internet, so I thought I'd revisit Paul's
truly insane "exegesis" of Sonnet 18, a a little at a time..
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
The comparison of a person to a summer's
day is extraordinary -- almost magical. It is
commonly regarded as a supreme example of
Shakespeare's poetic imagination -- as, indeed,
it is. Helen Vendler writes: "What is the most
beautiful thing, the 'summum bonum', in an
(English) world? -- A summer's day."
The poet was teasing us. He knew that was
how we would read it (and the whole sonnet)
but in his mind he had other aspects of "a
summer's day". One is the transient nature of
its existence. Think of it in the context of his
adored's beauty. Would she have wished that
last but a day?
The comparison is far from 'pure imagination'.
Shakespeare's genius lay in knowing how to
recruit into his poetry images he encountered
in other circumstances. The poet and his
addressee knew of another beauty, that did
gloriously, but briefly, flower; and it is to this
he asks: 'Shall I compare thee . . ?'.
It is not too difficult to guess to whom the
phrase 'Summers day' refers -- once we know
that the addressee of the sonnet was Queen
Elizabeth, and to whom she was, at one stage
in her reign, constantly compared.
But there is no indication whatever that this sonnet is
addressed to Queen Elizabeth. There is, in fact, no
clue whatever as to whom this sonnet was addressed, nor
even the sex of that person.
It is part of a sequence, so if we want to guess whom it's to,
we could reasonably see if there's a clue in the sonnets
preceding it. Those, to every sane person who reads them,
are addressed to a young man, not a woman, so not to
Queen Elizabeth.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I strongly suspect that there was a particular
and immediate source for 'a Summers day',
and I describe a possibility in a note below.
So far the Crowley Reading is "Shall I compare you,
Elizabeth, to a summer's day (to be identified later)?"
Except that the sonnet could be addressed to just about
anybody, and there's no reason to assume it was
addressed to Elizabeth, there is nothing wrong with it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Of course, Elizabeth comes off much more
favourably in this comparison. The poet
meant 'lovely' to be taken by his addressee
in the usual sense, but he had others also in
mind. 'Lovely' had a wider range of meanings
'loving, kind, affectionate'; 'amorous'; and
'friendly, amicable' (see OED). Taken in this
sense, the comparison was barbed.
Recent events had shown that the quality
Mary, Queen of Scots, most conspicuously
lacked was temperance. The poet may have
been referring back to elaborate plans for a
meeting between the two queens about four
Queen Elizabeth was known to throw tantrums. Not
everyone would deem her particularly temperate. Again,
though, the sonneteer might have. There is nothing to
indicate that Mary is in the poem, I should add. Crowley
just sticks her in.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"In London the prospect of the encounter was considered
sufficiently certain for the actual masques to be devised which
were to entertain the two queens, the chosen allegorical theme
being the punishment of False Report and Discord by Jupiter
at the request of Prudence and Temperance. The detailed and
long-winded plans for the masques -- three nights of them -- were
vetted personally by Cecil and much courtly care was exercised
in the delicate task of balancing the allegorical compliments to
both royal ladies . . " (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS* page 168)
Lots of masques, plays, poems, romance, pamphlets, sermons, etc.
were about prudence and temperance. There's no reason whatever
to claim any particular one of them had anything to do with this
sonnet.
Note that so far Crowely has provided no word for word explication of
the poem.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
This sonnet was written around April 1566
after the first 'rough patch' endured by Mary
-- the murder of David Riccio (on 9 March)
by her husband, King Henry (Darnley), Lord
Ruthven and several more of the Protestant
Lot os people experience "rough patches." It is ridiculously
arbitrary to maintain that the word, "rough," in this context
has anything to do with any particular rough patch. It is clearly
used merely to indicate that a summer day is not necessarily
wholly serene.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
" . . a few minutes later there was a far more astonishing apparition
up the staircase -- Patrick Lord Ruthven, with a steel cap on, and
with his armour showing through his gown, burning-eyed and pale
from the illness of which he was generally thought to be dying on
his sick-bed in a house close to Holyrood. So amazing was his
emergence at the queen's supper party, that the first reaction of
those present was that he was actually delirious, and had somehow
felt himself pursued, in his fever, by the spectre of one of his
victims.
[ as in Macbeth -- PC ] Ruthven -- who did in fact die three months
after these events took place -- was a highly unsavoury character,
popularly supposed to be a warlock or male witch, or at any rate in
Knox's phrase to 'use enchantment'. However, his first words left the
queen in no doubt as to what had brought this death's head to her
feast. 'Let it please your Majesty,' said Ruthven, 'that yonder man
David come forth of your privy-chamber where he hath been overlong.'
Mary replied with astonishment that Riccio was there at her own royal
wish, and asked Ruthven whether he had taken leave of his senses. . ."
(op. cit. page 252.)
So what?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
'May' is (or was until recently) a common
abbreviation for 'Mary'. 'Rough winds' is
based on 'Ruth-ven'. 'Ruth' was a contemporary
Scottish form of 'rough' (see OED under 'ruth',
'routh' and 'rough'); the poet takes 'ven' as
based on 'vent' = 'wind' in French (pronounced
without the 't').
Another sense is that some windy (or
wordy) persons had turned rough.
'Parole, parole, nothing but words. The Scots will boast but
rarely perform their brags.' Mary took the same line. Melville
tried to warn her also of what was going on . . . Mary replied
that something of the sort had also come to her own ears, but
she had paid no attention since 'our countrymen were well-
wordy' . ." (op. cit. page 249.)
There is a minor pun on 'darling/Darnley'
('darling Darnley' had highly effeminate looks
and had been young and pretty enough, at
least until recently).
"Darling" is not a pun for "Darnley"--neither syllable of
"Darnley" matches either of "darling."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
The poet also intended bawdy puns. The
present tense in line 3 suggests that Mary was
currently enjoying vigorous sexual relations --
(possibly with Riccio). 'Darling buds' refers
in the political sense to the infant in her womb,
and in the bawdy one to her breasts; similarly
'shake' and 'rough winds' (in the sense of
'windings') alludes to sexual intercourse. It
was still possible for our poet to joke about the
intensity of Mary's passion for Darnley (and
Riccio?) and to speculate on the nature of their
love-making.
The line is an astonishing combination of the
meteorological /horticultural and the political,
both set against a gloriously bawdy image of
the entwined royal couple writhing in passion.
Fine. Give us the word for word paraphrase of it. Can you?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'All too short a date' refers to the sudden end
of David Riccio in both the obvious sense and
in other ways.
Your narrative to this point seems to be saying that Elizabeth
is more temperate than Mary, whose get banged by Ruthven What
does "the sudden end" of Riccio have to do with this.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
His shortness of stature and his
ugliness were well-known. Mary was remarkably
tall to those times, and Darnley was even taller.)
Also the poet commonly bawdily puns on 'all' =
'awl' = 'penis'. He may be implying (in 'all too
short') that Riccio's penis was too short for the
Queen.
'Date' was a Scottish word: 'to pet, fondle, caress,
make much of'. See OED under 'daut'. (This
sense may, or may not, be related to the modern
usage of 'date' as a romantic appointment.)
Mary's summer passion for Darnley had been
remarkably intense but, in the nature of such
things, had a short lease of life. As Burghley
famously remarked: "Nuptiae Carnales a laetitia
incipiunt et in luctu terminantur."
There is something in 'Sommers lease' that
I cannot see. (John Somers was a high
ambassadorial official, and may have had
dealings with Riccio.)
A broader sense of line 4 may also be
addressed to Elizabeth. If she was to have an
heir of her body, she needed to get on with it.
So, paraphrase the line. I have no idea what you're
saying it means for you, so I can't critique it, except to
say that pulling words out of your rigidniplex concerning
Elizabeth and Mary whenever there's any kind of
possible connection to a word in the line in not
responsible paraphrasing.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
The 'eye of heaven' is the sun -- a symbol of
royalty. Here the poet beautifully exploits the
bawdy potential of a 'hot' and a royal 'eye'
opening into a royal 'heaven' -- alluding, of
course, to the intensity of Mary's sexual
passion in her brief marriage with Darnley,
In that case, the poem's speaker is calling Mary "heaven."
How can he then think Elizabeth superior to her?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and the allegations of an affair with Riccio. 'Shines'
may reflect the sense of 'taking a shine' -- even
if the OED does not record this until 1848.
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
Line 5 refers to the (Queen in a sexual passion).
There's no reference to "queen" in line 5, nor
to a "king" in line 6. The two lines are clearly about
the same entity, "summer"--sometimes his eye
is too hot and often is his complexion dimmed, yet
you claim line 5 is about Mary, line 6 about some
male king--Darnley? Hence, you have one of the two
lines wrong.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Line 6 refers to the King. There may be bawdy
allusions here, but "dimm'd" would refer to his
'eclipse' by Riccio, to his bouts of furious anger,
to his frequent illnesses (probably from syphilis,
pock-marking his face), to his regular shortages
of cash, and to his various 'changes' in religion.
'Complexion' often meant religious affiliation,
with 'gold' being associated with the Papacy
Darnley had been brought up a Catholic but he
started off in Scotland as Protestant (absenting
himself from the nuptial mass for his wedding);
he then seemed to revert to Catholicism carrying
lighted tapers through the streets of Edinburgh
at the feast of the Purification of the Virgin Mary
on 2 Feb 1566 -- a notably Catholic gesture --
which would have lit up his complexion. That
light was then dimmed by his plot with the
Protestant nobles to murder Riccio and seize
power from Mary. She then persuaded him to
join with her in the suppression of those same
nobles.
You are arbitrarily pinning meanings to words. Without
giving a word for word explication.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Darnley was addressed as 'King Henry' but he
was essentially only a consort. Even though
he had little interest in administration, he
constantly demanded the 'crown matrimonial'
which would grant him power equal to Mary
while she lived and would have continued
after her death if he survived her. Mary and
the Scottish parliament would not grant this,
leading to rows about the manner in which
they should sign documents and, in particular,
on the way their images should be presented
on coins.
There's nothing in the line to link it to Darnley.
Or anything but a summer's day.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"Certainly her violent infatuation for Darnley had not survived
the onsets of pregnancy, and she could after all no longer share
the pleasures of hunting and hawking which both had once
enjoyed so keenly. On 20 December, Bedford from Berwick
reported that, 'The Lord Darnley followeth his pastimes more
than the Queen is content withal; what it will breed hereafter
I cannot say, but in the meantime there is some misliking
between them.' On 25 December Randolph noted that 'a while
ago there was nothing but King and Queen, now the Queen's
husband is the common word. He was wont in all writings to be
first named: now he is placed second.' The relative placing of
the two names Henry and Mary was at the heart of the
mysterious matter of the silver 'ryal', a new denomination of
coin introduced shortly after their marriage at a nominal value
of thirty shillings. This 'ryal' showed the heads of Mary and
Darnley facing each other on one side, and on the other in
Latin a reference to their marriage - 'Whom God has joined
together, let no man put asunder'. In December Randolph also
reported that this coin had been withdrawn from circulation in
Scotland, because the names of the royal pair were engraved on
it in an unusual order as HENRICUS & MARIA D. GRA. R & R.
SCOTORUM. Randolph represented Mary as now regretting
the prominence given to Darnley's name, which for once
preceded that of the queen. " (Antonia Fraser *Mary QS*
page 240)
The 'dimming of the gold complexion' is
probably also a reference to the dispute
about these images, with the poet thinking
of gold coins.
Hey, maybe he had a gold tooth, too.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
The decline of 'faire from faire' refers mainly to
the deterioration of the royal marriage.
Why. And how does that fit your narrative? Can you
explicate this line, rather than just float vague opinions
about it?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Botj Mary and Darnley were known for their striking
beauty. ("In these portraits Darnley appears at
first sight like a young god, with his golden hair,
his perfectly shaped face with its short straight
nose, the neat oval chin . ." -- op. cit. page 220.)
It would also refer to the erosion of beauty with
age and illness, with particular reference to that
of Darnley, Mary and Elizabeth.
There may be other allusions as well, with a
pun on 'Ver' being likely; a 'Venus & Adonis'
relationship (of some sort) between Oxford
and the Queen is likely.
No effective poet is going to clutter a poem with
the multitude of incongruous images you think this
one does.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Both Mary and Darnley were known for their
addiction to card-playing and gambling -- as
was not uncommon among courtiers of the
day. 'Chance' or 'hazard' was a common card
game played by courtiers. The poet is
suggesting that a major reason for the decline
in the marriage was Darnley's generally
dissolute behaviour, particularly during
Mary's pregnancy.
Another reason for the decline was 'natures
changing course' -- where 'nature' is Mary (or
Elizabeth, or women generally). 'Untrimmed'
alludes viciously to the knife used to 'trim'
Riccio. (He had ~60 stab wounds, the fatal
ones probably from Darnley's dagger, wielded
by a Douglas relation.)
Fair things decline due to gambling, Mary's changeableness,
which trims Riccio? But the poem is saying every fair sometimes
declines; it is not alluding to any particular fair.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'Untrimmed' is also IMO used in a political
sense (even if the OED's first report in this
sense is 1682). OED 5 'trimmer' = 'one who
inclines to each of two opposite sides as
interest dictates'. Darnley seemed to exist
by 'trimming', and Mary had shown plenty of
devious 'trimming' in order to escape from her
captors.
If you are a trimmer, you don't become "untrimmed."
The linguistics are wrong.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
'Untrimmed' also had a bawdy sense. 'To
trim' was to deflower or possess a woman.
Right: cram some bawdry into it whether it fits
in any way or not. Some poets, you should know, though
favor keeping focus.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
AARON (TA V.1.89) . . .
'Twas her two sons that murder'd Bassianus;
They cut thy sister's tongue and ravish'd her
And cut her hands and trimm'd her as thou saw'st.
LUCIUS O detestable villain! call'st thou that trimming?
AARON Why, she was wash'd and cut and trimm'd, and 'twas
Trim sport for them that had the doing of it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
"Trimmed" in one, and "untrimmed" in the other. Sounds to
me (aside from one of Art's lunatic word-games) like the fairs
of line 7 are given their virginity in line 8, untrimming having
to be the oppositre of trimming (for users of English).
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The poet is also alluding to Elizabeth's
behaviour since coming to the throne -- of
turning down numerous proposals of marriage.
He is, as ever, warning of the danger of this
conduct -- faire England will decline its
'untrimmed' faire queen.
This interpretation would work if you could show the poem was
to Elizabeth, and that line 7 referred to her and not to Mary.
You don't spell out your narrative, though, so we can't know which
it does, and how.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
The sestet focuses more on the English
Queen, but with allusions to Scotland, as
in 'fade' which was a Scottish form of 'feud'
at the time (see OED). States and monarchies
did not fade away; but they were destroyed
by feuds.
'Eternal' had another sense: a derogatory one
(which it still retains) for a period of time that
has lasted much longer than it should. Here
Oxford is being sarcastic. He shared the
common feeling that the duration of Elizabeth's
'summer' had become unconscionable. Mary's
pregnancy had emphasised the lack of
seriousness in Elizabeth's conduct in the
1560s, in particular the slow, reluctant manner
in which she 'sought' a husband.
If he thought her summer too long, why did he say
it would not fade? Oh, yes, sarcasm. If the poem says
anything you don't think it should, it proves sarcasm is
going on, even though there's no warning of it, no set-up.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
'Owe' also meant 'own' -- and our poet must
necessarily pun on it. The 'faire' that Elizabeth
both owned and owed was her virginity -- and
through that -- her realm. The poet is implying
that her continued possession of former will
destroy that of the latter. She owed England
duties -- which she was not performing.
Right. Assume the line means the opposite of what
it says do to sarcasm. the problem with that is that
you can make it say anything you want it to that way.
I could say the poem is in praise of Mary, in which
case line 2 is sarcastically saying Elizabeth is the
lovelier of the two, which wasn't true. Etc.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
There is a reflection back to the dreadful
events in Scotland. The poet hopes that his
own queen will never see violent death
visited on her favourites in her presence.
What does that have to do with your narrative to this point?
And why does it have to mean just that rather than any
of a hundred other things it could easily mean--if we
ignore the fact that it obviously only means exactly what
it says, that the addressee will not enter the country
that others who die do--for a reason we'll soon be told.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The line hints at the bawdy sense of 'small
death' (orgasm); i.e. the Queen will not
enjoy this, if she is relying on poetry for her
immortality.
There is no sane reason to believe there's anything
bawdy about this line.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
These lines have a scolding tone (which
became more strident in sonnets 1-17,
written a few years later). Like the rest of
the nation, he desperately wanted her to
marry and have an heir, and grow in 'loins'
and in family lines of descent, rather than
just in lines of poetry. 'Eternal' is again
used ambiguously.
Why not give us your word for word explication?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
The two 'long's of the couplet pun on the
'long couple' (Darnley and Mary both being
remarkable for their height and slenderness).
How does that work in English, Paul? What does that
make the two lines "really" say (aside from their nursery
rhyme meaning for the uninitiated)? "So long couple as mean
can breathe or eyes can see?"
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
" . . her height, when described, is always commented on with
admiration. This may be in part due to the fact that, although tall,
Mary had extremely delicate bones . . . combined to give an
appearance of graceful elongation: it also made her an excellent
dancer . . in a manner calculated to dazzle the public eye at a
time when the personal image of a sovereign was of marked
consequence. . ." (op. cit. page 77.)
" . . It was Darnley's height which was considered at the time to
be his main physical characteristic -- had not Elizabeth called him
'yon long lad' when she pointed him out to Melville? -- and he
was fortunate in being slender with it, or as Melville put it, 'long
and small, even and straight'. His elegant physique could hardly
fail to commend itself to Mary for two reasons. Firstly, beautiful
as she was, Mary was nevertheless tall enough to tower over most
of her previous companions, including her first husband Francis.
The psychological implications of this height can only be guessed
at, but as Darnley was certainly well over six feet one inch . . "
(op. cit. page 221.)
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
The line again alludes to the Riccio murder --
with 'breathe' being partly ironic, or used in
the sense of 'breathe out' (through multiple
stab wounds)
This is totally insane. "So long couple as men can breathe out
through Riccio's multiple stab wounds or eyes can see?"
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and/or OED 16: 'to lance [a vein]
so as to give blood'. The poet believes that
more deaths likely to follow (including that
of Darnley?) in the desperate confusion of
Scottish politics, created largely by Mary's
intemperate decision to marry him. The future
is uncertain: 'so long . . as eyes can see'.
There is probably a pun on 'eyes/Ays', with
(Och) 'Ays' = Scotsmen.
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
I am missing something in the final line or
in the couplet. However, the scolding tone
continues. Is immortal life in poetry all she
wants -- even if she assumes that she can
trust the poet's promises?
The first line of the couplet may allude to the
Scottish king; the second to its queen. The
poet expects her to survive; she is the
(undeclared) apparent heir. So long as she
lives, Elizabeth's throne is safe. (The English
would never remove Elizabeth while Mary
was next in line.) In another sense, Mary
was carrying a child. That 'life' would, in due
course, succeed Elizabeth.
NOTE on "The Queen of Hearts"
I believe that it is quite probable that the
"The Queen of Hearts baked some tarts
All on a Summer's day . . "
came from the events of the second half
of 1565, and that it is the poet's source of
"a Summer's day".
There's no reason to believe "a summer's day" came
from the nursery rhyme. So the sonnet and the rhyme had
the same phrase, so what?
I'm ending here, for now. I can't say what's wrong with
your explication until you give one, Paul. What I can say is
that your various thoughts about the meaning of the lines
are worthless unless you can show in detail how what the
poem says indicates your meaning.
--Bob
marco
2014-11-29 00:56:00 UTC
Permalink
interpret

I could interpret between you and your love, if i Hamlet: III, ii
I can interpret all her martyr'd signs; Titus Andronicus: III, ii

One might interpret. Timon of Athens: I, i
Now will he interpret to her. The Two Gentlemen of Verona: II, i
If it be true that I interpret false, Pericles, Prince of Tyre: I, i

And yet your beards forbid me to interpret Macbeth: I, iii
Which can interpret further: only, I say, Macbeth: III, vi

Art N

b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-09 12:19:47 UTC
Permalink
To help Paul, who is obviously a novice at the explication of poetry,
I'm now going to explicate Sonnet 18, to show him how people that
know something about poetry do it. My explication won't be too
supper, for I'm away from home without my notes and previous
explications of the poem, but it should do.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1.   Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
"Would it be a good idea to make a comparison of you to a
day in the most pleasant of the four seasons?"

Note that my explication is a paraphrase of the line that
takes the DENOTATION of every word into into consideration
and tries to make linguistic sense. It is concerned primarily
with with the surface of the poem means. It ought to deal,
too, with any clear-cut connotations of the text it concerns,
as well as any secondary meanings, if any. In this case,
I find no connotations worth mention, and there is nothing
in the line (or, to my knowledge, outside the line--such as a
title telling us who the addressee is) to indicate it means
anything more than it says.
"You are superior to the summer's day mentioned in
both beauty and temperament." Ergo, In other words,
there's really no comparison between you and a
summer's day: you're much the better of the two.

Again, there is nothing in the text to indicate it means
anything more than it directly says.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
"Unruly, harmful upset the delicate early blossoms of
summer flowers."
"And that season does not remain in charge of nature for
very long: its "contract" to do so is short-term."

This line and the previous one point out in some detail
the defects of a summer's day, but, implicitly, not of
the addressee. There is nothing in them to suggest
they mean anything else.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
5.   Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
"There are times when the sun is unpleasantly too high
in temperature,"
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
6.   And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
"there are also frequent times when the sun is overcast."

Again, two lines providing further details of what makes
the summer's day inferior to the addressess, who--we
are led to believe--has no equivalent of temperatures
that are either too hot or not warm enough. And who
is never grey in disposition.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
7.   And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
"In summation, each good thing in a summer's day must
eventually retreat from its peak, or lose its best qualities,"
"the victim of some random event (like being trodden on
by some animal) or of the normal way the natural world
behaves (turning stormy, for instance).

Two more lines finishing up telling the reader what is
wrong with summer--and, it is strongly implied, NOT
with the addressee. So far, not a hint that anything other
than the surface meaning of the words (beautifully)
used is intended.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
9.   But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
"Your never-dying prime season, however, won't ever
decline"
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
10.  Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
"or surrender the beauty of appearance and disposition,
and other excellences you are in possession of"

Two more straight-forward lines, these ones claiming the
addressee will not fade in any manner the way a summer's
day inevitably will.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
11.  Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
"Nor will the ruler of the realm those who die go to boast
that you have entered that realm"
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
12.  When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
"when in ever-living lines of verse you continue to flourish
and perhaps even improve,"

Again, a straight-forward set of lines, these bringing in the
speaker of the poem's second main thought, which is that
poetry can make one who is its subject immortal. I admit
to not yet knowing exactly what "to time" means, but I believe
I have given the most plausible meaning to every one of the
other words in the poem.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
13.      So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
"Until such time as human beings are unable to keep alive by taking
in air or there are organs sensitive to light,"
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
14.      So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
"the poem you have been reading will endure, and it will grant you
immortality."

That does it. My explication accounts for every word in the poem
except "to" and "time," and even those can be accounted for as having
something to do with resisting what time does to all things. It is
also
completely plausible AND sufficient, for those with any ability at all
to appreciate poetry. To show some further meanings for the poem
requires evidence of them in the form externals like the notes of the
poet saying such meanings are there, or poems by other poets that
seem on the surface like this one but have some significant
hidden under-meaning, or permit a second explication that comes up
with such a hidden under-meaning that is as smooth, coherent, and
reasonably interesting as the primary meaning I've just shown the
poem indubitably to have.

The third course is the only one you have available, Paul--because we
have
no notes or anything else relevant from the author or from anyone else
to indicate any hidden meanings, nor are there any poems in the
language (or any language, so far as I know) that are like the kind of
poem you claim this is. I am absolutely sure that you can not
provide an explication that reveals a smooth, coherent, reasonable
hidden meaning. In fact, I'm pretty sure you will claim it's not
necessary to--the poet was too complex for any academic or even
you fully to explicate.

That would be nonsense, and clear evidence that your interpretation
is
wrong. But not to you. Nor will you ever accept my claim that it is
as
an argument against your interpretation.

--Bob G.
Paul Crowley
2010-04-09 22:43:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
To help Paul, who is obviously a novice at the
explication of poetry, I'm now going to explicate
Sonnet 18, to show him how people that know
something about poetry do it.
How come that I cannot look up the
numerous books on the Sonnets (Booth,
Vendler, Duncan-Jones, Kerrigan, etc.,
etc.,) and get a similar 'explication'?

Let me tell you -- since you obviously
don't know. Their view of the Sonnets
is close to yours. They also see the
Great Bard writing wonderful poetry on
utter banalities. So they considered this
kind of 'explication' and maybe even
tackled a few sonnets in this manner.
But then they realised (maybe some-
one told them) that it did not work.
They would only succeed in making
themselves look quite foolish.

They don't know -- any more than you
do -- why this method does not work.
But, they can see it doesn't.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
"Would it be a good idea to make a comparison
of you to a day in the most pleasant of the four
seasons?"
You see? It's total crap.

On a related issue (which we've been
over before) when did ANY poet before
Shake-speare compare a person to a
period of time? Let's say an evening
in Winter? Or an afternoon in October?
When did any do it after Shake-speare?

They don't do it because when they try,
only garbage comes out.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Note that my explication is a paraphrase of the
line that takes the DENOTATION of every word
into into consideration and tries to make
linguistic sense. It is concerned primarily with
with the surface of the poem means. It ought to
deal, too, with any clear-cut connotations of the
text it concerns, as well as any secondary
meanings, if any. In this case, I find no
connotations worth mention, and there is
nothing in the line (or, to my knowledge, outside
the line--such as a title telling us who the
addressee is) to indicate it means anything
more than it says.
The only question you need to answer
is why is your 'work' such total crap?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"You are superior to the summer's day
mentioned in both beauty and temperament."
Ergo, In other words, there's really no
you're much the better of the two.
There's no point in going on. This
could only be produced by the very
worst sort of hack -- without the
semblance of a poetic sliver in his
body.

[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
That does it. My explication accounts for every
word in the poem except "to" and "time," and
even those can be accounted for as having
something to do with resisting what time does
to all things. It is also completely plausible
AND sufficient
It is ridiculously INSUFFICIENT. No
one reading this garbage on its own
would know it had anything to do with
a poem -- or with poetry. It explains
NOTHING.

It is a non-explanation.

[..]

Paul.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-10 01:16:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
How come that I cannot look up the
numerous books on the Sonnets (Booth,
Vendler, Duncan-Jones, Kerrigan, etc.,
etc.,) and get a similar 'explication'?
You can't from Booth or Vendler although I suspect they
could have if they'd wanted to. You would get a similar
explication from almost any scholar because it's quite
what the poem is saying.
Post by Paul Crowley
Let me tell you -- since you obviously
don't know.  Their view of the Sonnets
is close to yours.  They also see the
Great Bard writing wonderful poetry on
utter banalities.
Affection, the beauty of summer, the power of art
are commonplaces, but all poetry is ultimately
about commonplaces. As you would know, if
you knew anything about poetry.
Post by Paul Crowley
So they considered this
kind of 'explication' and maybe even
tackled a few sonnets in this manner.
But then they realised (maybe some-
one told them) that it did not work.
They would only succeed in making
themselves look quite foolish.
They don't know -- any more than you
do -- why this method does not work.
But, they can see it doesn't.
The purpose of an explication, imbecile, is
to indicate what the poem literally means, NOT
to indicate why it is great.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1.   Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
"Would it be a good idea to make a comparison
of you to a day in the most pleasant of the four
seasons?"
You see?  It's total crap.
Do show how it fails to show exactly what the
line it's about literally means.
Post by Paul Crowley
On a related issue (which we've been
over before) when did ANY poet before
Shake-speare compare a person to a
period of time?  Let's say an evening
in Winter?  Or an afternoon in October?
When did any do it after Shake-speare?
When the money from you arrives that will pay for the year or two
it would take for me to research this, Paul, I'll start on it.
Post by Paul Crowley
They don't do it because when they try,
only garbage comes out.
Your yourself quoted Vendler telling us how wonderful a
day in summer is. An ascetic Philistine like you can have
no idea of this, however.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Note that my explication is a paraphrase of the
line that takes the DENOTATION of every word
into into consideration and tries to make
linguistic sense.  It is concerned primarily with
with the surface of the poem means.  It ought to
deal, too, with any clear-cut connotations of the
text it concerns, as well as any secondary
meanings, if any.  In this case, I find no
connotations worth mention, and there is
nothing in the line (or, to my knowledge, outside
the line--such as a title telling us who the
addressee is) to indicate it means anything
more than it says.
The only question you need to answer
is why is your 'work' such total crap?
Maybe I would if you could provide a sane argument
why determining exactly what a poem literally means
is a waste of time--or in the case above, where what
I say is wrong and why.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"You are superior to the summer's day
mentioned in both beauty and temperament."
Ergo, In other words, there's really no
you're much the better of the two.
There's no point in going on.  This
could only be produced by the very
worst sort of hack -- without the
semblance of a poetic sliver in his
body.
An explicator's job is not to write a poem about
the poem he is explicating but to say in the plainest
words exactly what it literally means.
Post by Paul Crowley
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
That does it.  My explication accounts for every
word in the poem except "to" and "time," and
even those can be accounted for as having
something to do with resisting what time does
to all things.  It is also completely plausible
AND sufficient
It is ridiculously INSUFFICIENT.  No
one reading this garbage on its own
would know it had anything to do with
a poem -- or with poetry.  It explains
NOTHING.
That's insane, needless to say. This garbage tells
someone reading what the poem is literally about.
It does not show what the poem is and does, which
are much more important, but there is no reason it
should. In the book I am writing, as you should know.
I attempt to do that by describing all the poetic devices
used in the poem and showing what they do and why
they do it and why they are effective.

The final goal of the critic is to reveal what he thinks
is the Final Aesthetic Meaning of the poem, and
present his arguments for it.
Post by Paul Crowley
It is a non-explanation.
If you knew the first thing about poetics, you would
know that an explication is not intended to be an
explanation. It is, however, absolutely required for
a full account of a poem.

--Bob G.
Paul Crowley
2010-04-10 10:03:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
If you knew the first thing about poetics, you
would know that an explication is not intended
to be an explanation. It is, however, absolutely
required for a full account of a poem.
One of the problems here is that you
have your own private definition of
'explicate' -- part your comprehensive
private language system. It makes
communication with the rest of the
world a bit tricky.

Explicate (Websters)
1. to make plain or clear; explain; interpret.
2. to develop (a principle, theory, etc.).
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
How come that I cannot look up the
numerous books on the Sonnets (Booth,
Vendler, Duncan-Jones, Kerrigan, etc.,
etc.,) and get a similar 'explication'?
You can't from Booth or Vendler although I suspect they
could have if they'd wanted to.
How come I can't get one from
ANY such 'scholar'?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Let me tell you -- since you obviously
don't know. Their view of the Sonnets
is close to yours. They also see the
Great Bard writing wonderful poetry on
utter banalities.
Affection, the beauty of summer, the power of
art are commonplaces, but all poetry is
ultimately about commonplaces.
Crap.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
So they considered this
kind of 'explication' and maybe even
tackled a few sonnets in this manner.
But then they realised (maybe some-
one told them) that it did not work.
They would only succeed in making
themselves look quite foolish.
They don't know -- any more than you
do -- why this method does not work.
But, they can see it doesn't.
The purpose of an explication, imbecile, is
to indicate what the poem literally means, NOT
to indicate why it is great.
Please make up your own words for
your own (daft) ideas. It is very
confusing when you use ordinary ones.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
"Would it be a good idea to make a comparison
of you to a day in the most pleasant of the four
seasons?"
You see? It's total crap.
Do show how it fails to show exactly what the
line it's about literally means.
As anyone can see, IF the line meant
only what you say it meant, it would
be as worthless (and as ugly and as
inelegant) as your expression of it
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
On a related issue (which we've been
over before) when did ANY poet before
Shake-speare compare a person to a
period of time? Let's say an evening
in Winter? Or an afternoon in October?
When did any do it after Shake-speare?
When the money from you arrives that will pay
for the year or two it would take for me to
research this, Paul, I'll start on it.
It's a simple question -- which I asked
years ago. Obviously, in the meantime,
you've not encountered any such poems
-- and nor has any Strat around here.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
They don't do it because when they try,
only garbage comes out.
Your yourself quoted Vendler telling us how
wonderful a day in summer is.
If I did, it was only to laugh at her.
Your ignorance is Stratfordian, and
shared generally by Strats.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Note that my explication is a paraphrase of the
line that takes the DENOTATION of every word
into into consideration and tries to make
linguistic sense. It is concerned primarily with
with the surface of the poem means. It ought to
deal, too, with any clear-cut connotations of the
text it concerns, as well as any secondary
meanings, if any. In this case, I find no
connotations worth mention, and there is
nothing in the line (or, to my knowledge, outside
the line--such as a title telling us who the
addressee is) to indicate it means anything
more than it says.
The only question you need to answer
is why is your 'work' such total crap?
Maybe I would if you could provide a sane
argument why determining exactly what a poem
literally means is a waste of time--
Because the words of great poets
NEVER have shallow simple trivial
pointless meanings of the sort you
imagine
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
or in the case
above, where what I say is wrong and why.
You've demonstrated it yourself.
Your words could not possibly have
anything to do with the poet's
intention.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"You are superior to the summer's day
mentioned in both beauty and temperament."
Ergo, In other words, there's really no
you're much the better of the two.
There's no point in going on. This
could only be produced by the very
worst sort of hack -- without the
semblance of a poetic sliver in his
body.
An explicator's job is not to write a poem about
the poem he is explicating but to say in the
plainest words exactly what it literally means.
From where did you get this crazy idea?
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
In the book I am writing, as you should know. I
attempt to do that by describing all the poetic
devices used in the poem and showing what
they do and why they do it and why they are
effective.
Why can't you mention a few of them
here?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The final goal of the critic is to reveal what he
thinks is the Final Aesthetic Meaning of the
poem, and present his arguments for it.
Yeah, yeah. The 'Final Aesthetic Meaning'.
What you really need is a new Post-Post-
Post-Post-Post-Modern ideology. Isn't it
such a shame that Marx lost all credibility?
Who are our intellectual leaders now?


Paul.
Sharon Parrish
2010-04-10 13:05:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
If you knew the first thing about poetics, you
would know that an explication is not intended
to be an explanation.  It is, however, absolutely
required for a full account of a poem.
One of the problems here is that you
have your own private definition of
'explicate' -- part your comprehensive
private language system.  It makes
communication with the rest of the
world a bit tricky.
Explicate (Websters)
1.    to make plain or clear; explain; interpret.
2.    to develop (a principle, theory, etc.).
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
How come that I cannot look up the
numerous books on the Sonnets (Booth,
Vendler, Duncan-Jones, Kerrigan, etc.,
etc.,) and get a similar 'explication'?
You can't from Booth or Vendler although I suspect they
could have if they'd wanted to.
How come I can't get one from
ANY such 'scholar'?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Let me tell you -- since you obviously
don't know.  Their view of the Sonnets
is close to yours.  They also see the
Great Bard writing wonderful poetry on
utter banalities.
Affection, the beauty of summer, the power of
art are commonplaces, but all poetry is
ultimately about commonplaces.
Crap.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
So they considered this
kind of 'explication' and maybe even
tackled a few sonnets in this manner.
But then they realised (maybe some-
one told them) that it did not work.
They would only succeed in making
themselves look quite foolish.
They don't know -- any more than you
do -- why this method does not work.
But, they can see it doesn't.
The purpose of an explication, imbecile, is
to indicate what the poem literally means, NOT
to indicate why it is great.
Please make up your own words for
your own (daft) ideas.  It is very
confusing when you use ordinary ones.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1.   Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
"Would it be a good idea to make a comparison
of you to a day in the most pleasant of the four
seasons?"
You see?  It's total crap.
Do show how it fails to show exactly what the
line it's about literally means.
As anyone can see, IF the line meant
only what you say it meant, it would
be as worthless (and as ugly and as
inelegant) as your expression of it
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
On a related issue (which we've been
over before) when did ANY poet before
Shake-speare compare a person to a
period of time?  Let's say an evening
in Winter?  Or an afternoon in October?
When did any do it after Shake-speare?
When the money from you arrives that will pay
for the year or two it would take for me to
research this, Paul, I'll start on it.
It's a simple question -- which I asked
years ago.  Obviously, in the meantime,
you've not encountered any such poems
-- and nor has any Strat around here.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
They don't do it because when they try,
only garbage comes out.
Your yourself quoted Vendler telling us how
wonderful a day in summer is.
If I did, it was only to laugh at her.
Your ignorance is Stratfordian, and
shared generally by Strats.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Note that my explication is a paraphrase of the
line that takes the DENOTATION of every word
into into consideration and tries to make
linguistic sense.  It is concerned primarily with
with the surface of the poem means.  It ought to
deal, too, with any clear-cut connotations of the
text it concerns, as well as any secondary
meanings, if any.  In this case, I find no
connotations worth mention, and there is
nothing in the line (or, to my knowledge, outside
the line--such as a title telling us who the
addressee is) to indicate it means anything
more than it says.
The only question you need to answer
is why is your 'work' such total crap?
Maybe I would if you could provide a sane
argument why determining exactly what a poem
literally means is a waste of time--
Because the words of great poets
NEVER have shallow simple trivial
pointless meanings of the sort you
imagine
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
or in the case
above, where what I say is wrong and why.
You've demonstrated it yourself.
Your words could not possibly have
anything to do with the poet's
intention.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"You are superior to the summer's day
mentioned in both beauty and temperament."
Ergo, In other words, there's really no
you're much the better of the two.
There's no point in going on.  This
could only be produced by the very
worst sort of hack -- without the
semblance of a poetic sliver in his
body.
An explicator's job is not to write a poem about
the poem he is explicating but to say in the
plainest words exactly what it literally means.
From where did you get this crazy idea?
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
In the book I am writing, as you should know. I
attempt to do that by describing all the poetic
devices used in the poem and showing what
they do and why they do it and why they are
effective.
Why can't you mention a few of them
here?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The final goal of the critic is to reveal what he
thinks is the Final Aesthetic Meaning of the
poem, and present his arguments for it.
Yeah, yeah.  The 'Final Aesthetic Meaning'.
What you really need is a new Post-Post-
Post-Post-Post-Modern ideology.  Isn't it
such a shame that Marx lost all credibility?
Who are our intellectual leaders now?
Paul.
Sharon Parrish
2010-04-10 14:08:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
If you knew the first thing about poetics, you
would know that an explication is not intended
to be an explanation.  It is, however, absolutely
required for a full account of a poem.
One of the problems here is that you
have your own private definition of
'explicate' -- part your comprehensive
private language system.  It makes
communication with the rest of the
world a bit tricky.
Explicate (Websters)
1.    to make plain or clear; explain; interpret.
2.    to develop (a principle, theory, etc.)
(1) If you knew the first thing about poetics, you would
know that my meaning for "explication" is the standard
meaning for the word in the field of poetics.

(2) The Webster's definition, the first one, is a
superficial one that is all morons need but not
anywhere near what specialists need. Nonetheless,
but does not contradict mine since mine is:

"to make the overt meaning of a text plain and clear,
explaining and interpreting where needed why it
means what one says it does"

(3) It is irrelevant what the word means since it is
obvious that when I ask for an explication, I want
what I told you I want, which I made clear.

(4) The explication of poems is taught as such in
colleges and practiced by literary critics. There is
even a magazine published called "The Explicator,"
which is devoted to explication as I define it. Why
would all this be so if it were not important?

(5) If you consider my kind of explication of no value for
understanding poems, you have to be claiming that
understand the explicit meaning of a poem's text
is of no value. The sane, however, consider it an
essential beginning point in any attempt to understand
as much as possible about a poem.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
How come that I cannot look up the
numerous books on the Sonnets (Booth,
Vendler, Duncan-Jones, Kerrigan, etc.,
etc.,) and get a similar 'explication'?
You can't from Booth or Vendler although I suspect they
could have if they'd wanted to.
How come I can't get one from
ANY such 'scholar'?
Probably because the explicit of the poem is so obvious,
no one sees the need to explicate it. Although all these
people explicate the bits needing it. Also, such full-scale
explications are boring, so why make them if they are not
necessary, as they usually are not except for the most difficult
poems.

I believe, and will check on this, that one could make a
full-scale explication of the poem based on what Vendler
or Booth say about--because, unlike your hare-brained
scattered "interpretations," they fit the poem. I would
also claim that ither of the two would make the kind
of full explication I did if anyone urgently requested
them to. I'm also sure that some scholar somewhere,
sometime, has made an explication of the poem like mine.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Let me tell you -- since you obviously
don't know.  Their view of the Sonnets
is close to yours.  They also see the
Great Bard writing wonderful poetry on
utter banalities.
Affection, the beauty of summer, the power of
art are commonplaces, but all poetry is
ultimately about commonplaces.
Crap.
Cite a poem considered by almost everyone to be
great that was not. Keats's most famous sonnet
is about how the thrill he got from reading a
translation of Homer. One of Shelley's best-regarded
poems is about a skylark. Wordsworth wrote a
terrific passage about how much he enjoyed ice-skating
as a boy. Then there's Frost's poem about stopping
by woods on a snowy evening. Almost all haiku are
about sommonplace things. Basho's about a frog
jumping in a pond, for instance, which is the most
famous haiku and has been written about by literally
hundreds of people. And hundreds of poets have
done variations on it. It, in fact, is part of the definition of
the classical haiku that it be about a commonplace subject.
Williams's most famous poem is about nothing more
than a red wheelbarrow.

If you seriously read any other poetry than Shakespeare's,
you would know this.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
So they considered this
kind of 'explication' and maybe even
tackled a few sonnets in this manner.
But then they realised (maybe some-
one told them) that it did not work.
They would only succeed in making
themselves look quite foolish.
They don't know -- any more than you
do -- why this method does not work.
But, they can see it doesn't.
The purpose of an explication, imbecile, is
to indicate what the poem literally means, NOT
to indicate why it is great.
Please make up your own words for
your own (daft) ideas.  It is very
confusing when you use ordinary ones.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1.   Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
"Would it be a good idea to make a comparison
of you to a day in the most pleasant of the four
seasons?"
You see?  It's total crap.
Do show how it fails to show exactly what the
line it's about literally means.
As anyone can see, IF the line meant
only what you say it meant, it would
be as worthless (and as ugly and as
inelegant) as your expression of it
I didn't t say it meant ONLY what I said it did.
However, its only direct meaning is what I
said it was. My expression of the meaning
was not intended to be beautiful or elegant,
just accurate. If the line meant only what
I say it does, it would be beautiful for the
many reasons I gave for that in earlier posts
such as the liquidity of its diction, its internal
rhyme, and its central idea (the comparison of
a person to a summer's day, which I believe
was probably relatively fresh at the time.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
On a related issue (which we've been
over before) when did ANY poet before
Shake-speare compare a person to a
period of time?  Let's say an evening
in Winter?  Or an afternoon in October?
When did any do it after Shake-speare?
When the money from you arrives that will pay
for the year or two it would take for me to
research this, Paul, I'll start on it.
It's a simple question -- which I asked
years ago.  Obviously, in the meantime,
you've not encountered any such poems
-- and nor has any Strat around here.
I haven't kept an eye open for them. If you're
right, it's one more reason for admiring the line.

It's not just a period of time he's comparing his
addressee to, by the way, but to the "flesh" of that
period of time--as we shall see that includes the
myriad buds, the beauty of the sun, and pleasantness
of the warmth it gives, and all its other "faires."
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
They don't do it because when they try,
only garbage comes out.
Your yourself quoted Vendler telling us how
wonderful a day in summer is.
If I did, it was only to laugh at her.
Your ignorance is Stratfordian, and
shared generally by Strats.
It may be true that only Strats can be
pleased by references to summer days,
instead of Darnely's skinniness, but I
doubt it.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Note that my explication is a paraphrase of the
line that takes the DENOTATION of every word
into into consideration and tries to make
linguistic sense.  It is concerned primarily with
with the surface of the poem means.  It ought to
deal, too, with any clear-cut connotations of the
text it concerns, as well as any secondary
meanings, if any.  In this case, I find no
connotations worth mention, and there is
nothing in the line (or, to my knowledge, outside
the line--such as a title telling us who the
addressee is) to indicate it means anything
more than it says.
The only question you need to answer
is why is your 'work' such total crap?
Maybe I would if you could provide a sane
argument why determining exactly what a poem
literally means is a waste of time--
Because the words of great poets
NEVER have shallow simple trivial
pointless meanings of the sort you
imagine
Have to be about important things like
kings and queens, and politics, not
beauty. Who needs that?!

But you have agreed that what I say the
poem means is there. You merely claim
that it's not important.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
or in the case
above, where what I say is wrong and why.
You've demonstrated it yourself.
Your words could not possibly have
anything to do with the poet's
intention.
And you have no need to demonstrate that,
the assertion of the Crowley is sufficient.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"You are superior to the summer's day
mentioned in both beauty and temperament."
Ergo, In other words, there's really no
you're much the better of the two.
There's no point in going on.  This
could only be produced by the very
worst sort of hack -- without the
semblance of a poetic sliver in his
body.
An explicator's job is not to write a poem about
the poem he is explicating but to say in the
plainest words exactly what it literally means.
From where did you get this crazy idea?
The question is where you got the insane idea that it
isn't. The answer to your question is that I got my
idea from immersion in poetry as reader, composer
and critic of it for many decades.
Post by Paul Crowley
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
In the book I am writing, as you should know. I
attempt to do that by describing all the poetic
devices used in the poem and showing what
they do and why they do it and why they are
effective.
Why can't you mention a few of them
here?
Ah, if I don't mention something, it must follow that
I can't. Counter-question: do you really not remember
my mentioning all of them more than once in earlier
posts--that I'm not going to give you the URLs to
because it's too much trouble, and I can mention them now:

rhyme, alliteration, assonance, consonance, euphony, metaphor,
vowel-openness, imagery . . . there are others, but I don't have
my notes with me, and can't think of them at the moment. Oh,
meter, of course.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The final goal of the critic is to reveal what he
thinks is the Final Aesthetic Meaning of the
poem, and present his arguments for it.
Yeah, yeah.  The 'Final Aesthetic Meaning'.
What you really need is a new Post-Post-
Post-Post-Post-Modern ideology.  Isn't it
such a shame that Marx lost all credibility?
Who are our intellectual leaders now?
The Final Aesthetic Meaning is NOTHING like
what post-etc. critics are looking for. They, in
fact, are mostly looking for crap like political
meanings the way you are. I'm doing what
the "new critics" of 70 or more years ago did,
but which you obviously know nothing about
since you know nothing about poetry, poets, poems,
poetry criticism, aesthetics, poetics or anything
else relevant.

You can't tell us what the poem means, only that
it can't mean anything like what all poems for
thousands of years have meant.

--Bob
Melanie Sands
2010-04-10 15:52:47 UTC
Permalink
Have you had a sex-change?

Anyway, Bob, Sharon or Paul (sounds like a folk band),
Upstart Crowley's interpretation of the sonnets - and indeed
the entire Oxfordianistic credo - reminds me of those
people who believe they are reincarnated - and aren't
they always convinced they were Napoleon or Caesar or
Marie Antoinette in another life - and not one of them ever, ever
imagines he was the village idiot or a thieving slut or
a prison warden with a taste for bloodthirsty sadism
or a dishonest old busybody -

and in the same way, the anti-Strats never believe a
play is just a play, a poem is just a poem, and that the
subtext lies in the human passions and emotions, and
not in the POLITICAL significance.

If Oxfordians see a road sign saying "To hospital turn left"
they will believe this signifies that medical care is communist.

If some of us don't reply to anti-Strat posts it is not because
we are overcome by their wit and wisdom but oftentimes because we
are too busy shaking our heads in disbelief at such
presumptuousness - for presumptuous it is
to believe that these plays are hidden
codes of a sensitive political nature and/or
intimate autobiographies and thus could not
have been written by someone the anti-Strats presume,
in their customary exaggerated fashion, to be both mentally
challenged and incapable of writing his own name
simply because he was
a) a country boy
and
b) an actor

when they all know, I presume, about people like Moliere for example.

Melanie
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
If you knew the first thing about poetics, you
would know that an explication is not intended
to be an explanation.  It is, however, absolutely
required for a full account of a poem.
One of the problems here is that you
have your own private definition of
'explicate' -- part your comprehensive
private language system.  It makes
communication with the rest of the
world a bit tricky.
Explicate (Websters)
1.    to make plain or clear; explain; interpret.
2.    to develop (a principle, theory, etc.)
(1) If you knew the first thing about poetics, you would
know that my meaning for "explication" is the standard
meaning for the word in the field of poetics.
(2) The Webster's definition, the first one, is a
superficial one that is all morons need but not
anywhere near what specialists need.  Nonetheless,
"to make the overt meaning of a text plain and clear,
explaining and interpreting where needed why it
means what one says it does"
(3) It is irrelevant what the word means since it is
obvious that when I ask for an explication, I want
what I told you I want, which I made clear.
(4) The explication of poems is taught as such in
colleges and practiced by literary critics.  There is
even a magazine published called "The Explicator,"
which is devoted to explication as I define it.  Why
would all this be so if it were not important?
(5) If you consider my kind of explication of no value for
understanding poems, you have to be claiming that
understand the explicit meaning of a poem's text
is of no value.  The sane, however, consider it an
essential beginning point in any attempt to understand
as much as possible about a poem.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
How come that I cannot look up the
numerous books on the Sonnets (Booth,
Vendler, Duncan-Jones, Kerrigan, etc.,
etc.,) and get a similar 'explication'?
You can't from Booth or Vendler although I suspect they
could have if they'd wanted to.
How come I can't get one from
ANY such 'scholar'?
Probably because the explicit of the poem is so obvious,
no one sees the need to explicate it.  Although all these
people explicate the bits needing it.  Also, such full-scale
explications are boring, so why make them if they are not
necessary, as they usually are not except for the most difficult
poems.
I believe, and will check on this, that one could make a
full-scale explication of the poem based on what Vendler
or Booth say about--because, unlike your hare-brained
scattered "interpretations," they fit the poem.  I would
also claim that ither of the two would make the kind
of full explication I did if anyone urgently requested
them to.  I'm also sure that some scholar somewhere,
sometime, has made an explication of the poem like mine.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Let me tell you -- since you obviously
don't know.  Their view of the Sonnets
is close to yours.  They also see the
Great Bard writing wonderful poetry on
utter banalities.
Affection, the beauty of summer, the power of
art are commonplaces, but all poetry is
ultimately about commonplaces.
Crap.
Cite a poem considered by almost everyone to be
great that was not.  Keats's most famous sonnet
is about how the thrill he got from reading a
translation of Homer.  One of Shelley's best-regarded
poems is about a skylark.  Wordsworth wrote a
terrific passage about how much he enjoyed ice-skating
as a boy.  Then there's Frost's poem about stopping
by woods on a snowy evening.  Almost all haiku are
about sommonplace things.  Basho's about a frog
jumping in a pond, for instance, which is the most
famous haiku and has been written about by literally
hundreds of people.  And hundreds of poets have
done variations on it.  It, in fact, is part of the definition of
the classical haiku that it be about a commonplace subject.
Williams's most famous poem is about nothing more
than a red wheelbarrow.
If you seriously read any other poetry than Shakespeare's,
you would know this.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
So they considered this
kind of 'explication' and maybe even
tackled a few sonnets in this manner.
But then they realised (maybe some-
one told them) that it did not work.
They would only succeed in making
themselves look quite foolish.
They don't know -- any more than you
do -- why this method does not work.
But, they can see it doesn't.
The purpose of an explication, imbecile, is
to indicate what the poem literally means, NOT
to indicate why it is great.
Please make up your own words for
your own (daft) ideas.  It is very
confusing when you use ordinary ones.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1.   Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
"Would it be a good idea to make a comparison
of you to a day in the most pleasant of the four
seasons?"
You see?  It's total crap.
Do show how it fails to show exactly what the
line it's about literally means.
As anyone can see, IF the line meant
only what you say it meant, it would
be as worthless (and as ugly and as
inelegant) as your expression of it
I didn't t say it meant ONLY what I said it did.
However, its only direct meaning is what I
said it was.  My expression of the meaning
was not intended to be beautiful or elegant,
just accurate.  If the line meant only what
I say it does, it would be beautiful for the
many reasons I gave for that in earlier posts
such as the liquidity of its diction, its internal
rhyme, and its central idea (the comparison of
a person to a summer's day, which I believe
was probably relatively fresh at the time.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
On a related issue (which we've been
over before) when did ANY poet before
Shake-speare compare a person to a
period of time?  Let's say an evening
in Winter?  Or an afternoon in October?
When did any do it after Shake-speare?
When the money from you arrives that will pay
for the year or two it would take for me to
research this, Paul, I'll start on it.
It's a simple question -- which I asked
years ago.  Obviously, in the meantime,
you've not encountered any such poems
-- and nor has any Strat around here.
I haven't kept an eye open for them.  If you're
right, it's one more reason for admiring the line.
It's not just a period of time he's comparing his
addressee to, by the way, but to the "flesh" of that
period of time--as we shall see that includes the
myriad buds, the beauty of the sun, and pleasantness
of the warmth it gives, and all its other "faires."
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
They don't do it because when they try,
only garbage comes out.
Your yourself quoted Vendler telling us how
wonderful a day in summer is.
If I did, it was only to laugh at her.
Your ignorance is Stratfordian, and
shared generally by Strats.
It may be true that only Strats can be
pleased by references to summer days,
instead of Darnely's skinniness, but I
doubt it.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Note that my explication is a paraphrase of the
line that takes the DENOTATION of every word
into into consideration and tries to make
linguistic sense.  It is concerned primarily with
with the surface of the poem means.  It ought to
deal, too, with any clear-cut connotations of the
text it concerns, as well as any secondary
meanings, if any.  In this case, I find no
connotations worth mention, and there is
nothing in the line (or, to my knowledge, outside
the line--such as a title telling us who the
addressee is) to indicate it means anything
more than it says.
The only question you need to answer
is why is your 'work' such total crap?
Maybe I would if you could provide a sane
argument why determining exactly what a poem
literally means is a waste of time--
Because the words of great poets
NEVER have shallow simple trivial
pointless meanings of the sort you
imagine
Have to be about important things like
kings and queens, and politics, not
beauty.  Who needs that?!
But you have agreed that what I say the
poem means is there.  You merely claim
that it's not important.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
or in the case
above, where what I say is wrong and why.
You've demonstrated it yourself.
Your words could not possibly have
anything to do with the poet's
intention.
And you have no need to demonstrate that,
the assertion of the Crowley is sufficient.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"You are superior to the summer's day
mentioned in both beauty and temperament."
Ergo, In other words, there's really no
you're much the better of the two.
There's no point in going on.  This
could only be produced by the very
worst sort of hack -- without the
semblance of a poetic sliver in his
body.
An explicator's job is not to write a poem about
the poem he is explicating but to say in the
plainest words exactly what it literally means.
From where did you get this crazy idea?
The question is where you got the insane idea that it
isn't.  The answer to your question is that I got my
idea from immersion in poetry as reader, composer
and critic of it for many decades.
Post by Paul Crowley
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
In the book I am writing, as you should know. I
attempt to do that by describing all the poetic
devices used in the poem and showing what
they do and why they do it and why they are
effective.
Why can't you mention a few of them
here?
Ah, if I don't mention something, it must follow that
I can't.  Counter-question: do you really not remember
my mentioning all of them more than once in earlier
posts--that I'm not going to give you the URLs to
rhyme, alliteration, assonance, consonance, euphony, metaphor,
vowel-openness, imagery . . .  there are others, but I don't have
my notes with me, and can't think of them at the moment.  Oh,
meter, of course.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The final goal of the critic is to reveal what he
thinks is the Final Aesthetic Meaning of the
poem, and present his arguments for it.
Yeah, yeah.  The 'Final Aesthetic Meaning'.
What you really need is a new Post-Post-
Post-Post-Post-Modern ideology.  Isn't it
such a shame that Marx lost all credibility?
Who are our intellectual leaders now?
The Final Aesthetic Meaning is NOTHING like
what post-etc. critics are looking for.  They, in
fact, are mostly looking for crap like political
meanings the way you are.  I'm doing what
the "new critics" of 70 or more years ago did,
but which you obviously know nothing about
since you know nothing about poetry, poets, poems,
poetry criticism, aesthetics, poetics or anything
else relevant.
You can't tell us what the poem means, only that
it can't mean anything like what all poems for
thousands of years have meant.
--Bob
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-11 00:44:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Melanie Sands
Have you had a sex-change?
Hi, Melanie. My sex changed several years ago, but I kept my
name. Sharon is my niece. I'd like to say she's taking over for
me with Crowley, but what actually happened is that she and
I were both using the computer at my brother's yesterday and
somehow my response to Paul came out in her name--which I
don't quite understand, because she's not a member of HLAS.
Post by Melanie Sands
Anyway, Bob, Sharon or Paul (sounds like a folk band),
Upstart Crowley's interpretation of the sonnets - and indeed
the entire Oxfordianistic credo - reminds me of those
people who believe they are reincarnated - and aren't
they always convinced they were Napoleon or Caesar or
Marie Antoinette in another life - and not one of them ever, ever
imagines he was the village idiot or a thieving slut or
a prison warden with a taste for bloodthirsty sadism
or a dishonest old busybody -
and in the same way, the anti-Strats never believe a
play is just a play, a poem is just a poem, and that the
subtext lies in the human passions and emotions, and
not in the POLITICAL significance.
With rare exceptions, they don't understand what plays
and poems are. Nor what aesthetic pleasure is.

I'd love to get a list of Crowley's favorite 100 poems by
authors other than Shakespeare. Better yet, read his
own 100 best poems. Surely one of his genius and
incredible knowledge of poetry should be able to write
top-of-the-line poems.
Post by Melanie Sands
If Oxfordians see a road sign saying "To hospital turn left"
they will believe this signifies that medical care is communist.
Hmmm, Roundie, in what way does it not fit that interpretation?
Post by Melanie Sands
If some of us don't reply to anti-Strat posts it is not because
we are overcome by their wit and wisdom but oftentimes because we
are too busy shaking our heads in disbelief at such
presumptuousness - for presumptuous it is
 to believe that these plays are hidden
codes of a sensitive political nature and/or
intimate autobiographies and  thus could not
have been written by someone the anti-Strats presume,
in their customary exaggerated fashion, to be both mentally
challenged and incapable of writing his own name
simply because he was
a) a country boy
and
b) an actor
when they all know, I presume, about people like Moliere for example.
Melanie
Well, as a fellow knight of the Round Table, you have to admit
that a jouster has to be much smarter than an actor.


--Sir Bob
John W Kennedy
2010-04-11 01:18:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
she's not a member of HLAS.
Ain't no such thing as a "member of HLAS". USENET technology does not
recognize any such concept as membership. (The moderator of a moderated
group, which this is not, may have a membership requirement, but that
is purely up to the moderator; it takes place without respect to USENET
itself.)
--
John W Kennedy
"There are those who argue that everything breaks even in this old dump
of a world of ours. I suppose these ginks who argue that way hold that
because the rich man gets ice in the summer and the poor man gets it in
the winter things are breaking even for both. Maybe so, but I'll swear
I can't see it that way."
-- The last words of Bat Masterson
Paul Crowley
2010-04-11 21:19:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
One of the problems here is that you
have your own private definition of
'explicate' -- part your comprehensive
private language system. It makes
communication with the rest of the
world a bit tricky.
Explicate (Websters)
1. to make plain or clear; explain; interpret.
2. to develop (a principle, theory, etc.)
(1) If you knew the first thing about poetics, you
would know that my meaning for "explication" is
the standard meaning for the word in the field of
poetics.
Quote some article on the web which
'analyses' poetry after your fashion.
(You might find some school-child
doing their homework, but you won't
get any one with a reputation.)

[..]
Post by Sharon Parrish
There is even a magazine published called "The
Explicator," which is devoted to explication as I
define it.
Not so. The 'Explicator' seems to be a
more-or-less serious publication that
has competently written articles -- and
nothing like your infantile garbage.
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
How come that I cannot look up the
numerous books on the Sonnets (Booth,
Vendler, Duncan-Jones, Kerrigan, etc.,
etc.,) and get a similar 'explication'?
You can't from Booth or Vendler although I suspect they
could have if they'd wanted to.
How come I can't get one from
ANY such 'scholar'?
Probably because the explicit of the poem is so
obvious, no one sees the need to explicate it.
Wrong. No one denies the complexity
and obscurity of most of the sonnets.
Post by Sharon Parrish
Although all these people explicate the bits
needing it.
Wrong. They sometimes pretend to
explain the easiest bits -- in a way not
unlike yours -- but only of small
phrases. They are careful never to give
a full 'paraphrase' (after your fashion)
realising how stupid it looks.

[..]
Post by Sharon Parrish
I believe, and will check on this, that one could
make a full-scale explication of the poem based
on what Vendler or Booth say about--
Wrong.
Post by Sharon Parrish
because, unlike your hare-brained scattered
"interpretations," they fit the poem.
In fact, they almost invariably go wrong.
As is easy to show.
Post by Sharon Parrish
I would also
claim that ither of the two would make the kind
of full explication I did if anyone urgently
requested them to. I'm also sure that some
scholar somewhere, sometime, has made an
explication of the poem like mine.
Nope.
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Affection, the beauty of summer, the power of
art are commonplaces, but all poetry is
ultimately about commonplaces.
Crap.
Cite a poem considered by almost everyone to
be great that was not. Keats's most famous
sonnet is about how the thrill he got from
reading a translation of Homer. One of
Shelley's best-regarded poems is about a
skylark. Wordsworth wrote a
terrific passage about how much he enjoyed ice-skating
as a boy. Then there's Frost's poem about stopping
by woods on a snowy evening. Almost all haiku are
about sommonplace things. Basho's about a frog
jumping in a pond, for instance, which is the most
famous haiku and has been written about by literally
hundreds of people. And hundreds of poets have
done variations on it. It, in fact, is part of the definition of
the classical haiku that it be about a commonplace subject.
Williams's most famous poem is about nothing more
than a red wheelbarrow.
No one (except you) suggests that
these poems were merely about the
superficial subject. On most of them
there are reams of essays outlining
their 'real' meaning.
[..]
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
"Would it be a good idea to make a comparison
of you to a day in the most pleasant of the four
seasons?"
You see? It's total crap.
Do show how it fails to show exactly what the
line it's about literally means.
As anyone can see, IF the line meant
only what you say it meant, it would
be as worthless (and as ugly and as
inelegant) as your expression of it
I didn't t say it meant ONLY what I said it did.
Oh, yes you did. What ELSE does any
of it mean? You have not suggested
the faintest whisper.
Post by Sharon Parrish
However, its only direct meaning is what I
said it was. My expression of the meaning
was not intended to be beautiful or elegant,
just accurate. If the line meant only what
I say it does, it would be beautiful for the
many reasons I gave for that in earlier posts
such as the liquidity of its diction, its internal
rhyme, and its central idea (the comparison of
a person to a summer's day, which I believe
was probably relatively fresh at the time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That
must also be why we like it so
much -- it's a fresh idea.

[..]
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Because the words of great poets
NEVER have shallow simple trivial
pointless meanings of the sort you
imagine
Have to be about important things like
kings and queens, and politics, not
beauty. Who needs that?!
Only the truly ignorant assume that
such things don't determine how they
live (and often IF they live), and the
quality of their lives.
Post by Sharon Parrish
But you have agreed that what I say the
poem means is there.
I would not accept any of the garbage
you wrote in your 'paraphrase'. The
'rural idyll' stuff in the Sonnet is never
spelt out -- let alone after the fashion
you state it.
Post by Sharon Parrish
You merely claim that it's not important.
It is no more than a vague superficial
theme.
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Your words could not possibly have
anything to do with the poet's
intention.
And you have no need to demonstrate that,
the assertion of the Crowley is sufficient.
It is obvious to anyone with some slight
intelligence.

[..]
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"You are superior to the summer's day
mentioned in both beauty and temperament."
Ergo, In other words, there's really no
you're much the better of the two.
[..]
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The final goal of the critic is to reveal what he
thinks is the Final Aesthetic Meaning of the
poem, and present his arguments for it.
Yeah, yeah. The 'Final Aesthetic Meaning'.
What you really need is a new Post-Post-
Post-Post-Post-Modern ideology. Isn't it
such a shame that Marx lost all credibility?
Who are our intellectual leaders now?
The Final Aesthetic Meaning is NOTHING like
what post-etc. critics are looking for. They, in
fact, are mostly looking for crap like political
meanings the way you are. I'm doing what
the "new critics" of 70 or more years ago did,
but which you obviously know nothing about
since you know nothing about poetry, poets, poems,
poetry criticism, aesthetics, poetics or anything
else relevant.
You can't tell us what the poem means, only that
it can't mean anything like what all poems for
thousands of years have meant.
One of the most baleful effects of
Stratfordianism (from the many to
choose from) is the belief that
poetry can be (or even should be)
about banalities.


Paul.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-11 22:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
One of the problems here is that you
have your own private definition of
'explicate' -- part your comprehensive
private language system.  It makes
communication with the rest of the
world a bit tricky.
Explicate (Websters)
1.    to make plain or clear; explain; interpret.
2.    to develop (a principle, theory, etc.)
(1) If you knew the first thing about poetics, you
would know that my meaning for "explication" is
the standard meaning for the word in the field of
poetics.
Quote some article on the web which
'analyses' poetry after your fashion.
(You might find some school-child
doing their homework, but you won't
get any one with a reputation.)
If Sonnet 18 conatins your insane interpretation of it,
you will be able to show where it does. You can't.
You can only pick out scattered words that seem to
you to have something vaguely to do with the muddle
you consider your interpretation. You can't even give
a general summary of your interpretation. You're a moron
who doesn't know anything about poetry. Your constant
requests that I run around the Internet to cite something
you require but will never recognize as what you're after
is mere evasion.

I will admit, however, that I now retract my claim that what
I did is an explication, although it can be called that. I
checked the Princeton Encyclopedia, and it said, as I
thought it would, that the term is used in too many
different ways for it to be defined. This leads me to the
position that if a person uses it, one needs to define what it
means to him before using it.

Rushing, I had forgotten about paraphrasing, which is actually
what I did. Paraphrasing is, of course, an essential part of
exlpicating. I would not say that there are two kinds of
paraphrases, denotational, which is what I did, and connotational,
which I would have done next. A full paraphrase is a combination
of both. An explication would be both plus, perhaps, discussions
of things like symbolic and archetypal value--I'm hazy on it now,
but it doesn't matter here. You are not interested in any way of
looking at a poem other than finding Oxford and his friends in it.
Post by Paul Crowley
[..]
Post by Sharon Parrish
There is even a magazine published called "The
Explicator," which is devoted to explication as I
define it.
Not so.  The 'Explicator' seems to be a
more-or-less serious publication that
has competently written articles -- and
nothing like your infantile garbage.
Its articles do what I do and discuss it.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
How come that I cannot look up the
numerous books on the Sonnets (Booth,
Vendler, Duncan-Jones, Kerrigan, etc.,
etc.,) and get a similar 'explication'?
You can't from Booth or Vendler although I suspect they
could have if they'd wanted to.
How come I can't get one from
ANY such 'scholar'?
Probably because the explicit MEANING of the
poem is so obvious, no one sees the need to
explicate it.
Wrong. No one denies the complexity
and obscurity of most of the sonnets.
Almost everyone agrees that the explicit meaning
of most of the sonnets is obvious, except in spots,
which spots people like Vendler and Booth discuss.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
Although all these people explicate the bits
needing it.
As I just repeated.
Post by Paul Crowley
Wrong.  They sometimes pretend to
explain the easiest bits -- in a way not
unlike yours -- but only of small
phrases.  They are careful never to give
a full 'paraphrase' (after your fashion)
realising how stupid it looks.
[..]
Post by Sharon Parrish
I believe, and will check on this, that one could
make a full-scale explication of the poem based
on what Vendler or Booth say about--
Wrong.
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
Shal;l I compar thee to a summers day--it means exactly what it says
so Vendler has no need to tell us that; I did to show how a thorough
paraphrase works.
t means what it says. "lovely" and "temperate" are "wooing words,"
so the speaker, for Vendler is wooing the addressee.
Post by Paul Crowley
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
Rough winds shake the buds of May (but leave them intact)
(here the poet begins denigrating the perfect day that
he is comparing the addressee to, to show the latter's
superiority to it, a course he will continue.)
Summer won't last long--here the speaker geins a series
of contrasts between the mutability of a summer's day and
the eternal summer of the addressee. (Vendler is more
general than I--she does little paraphrasing but a lot
of explaining of an implied paraphrase, a paraphrase that
need not be done because clear to everyone; yours needs
to be done because unclear to everyone but you.
Post by Paul Crowley
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
Over the next four lines the speaker shows that all
things are undone "by one great agency or another."
The direct meaning of each lines needs no paraphrase
because obvious. You, however, can hardly find one
line that can be paraphrased in a manner to show
the logic of your interpretation the way my paraphrase
shows the logic of mine that it is about a summer's day
in comparison to the addressee, and about the power of
poetry to immortalize.
Post by Paul Crowley
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
Obvious, so no parphrase is given. Note: Vendler
is out to entertain readers, among other things. I
wasn't.
Post by Paul Crowley
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
Obvious.
The direct meaning is clear so not needing paraphrase. Vendler
adds that Shakespeare suggests some order to the breaking up
of the day by means of what she calls phonetic concatention,
but which I call alliteration.
Post by Paul Crowley
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
You will triumph over nature, your season will not fade.
Post by Paul Crowley
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
You'll keep all the virtues you have.
Post by Paul Crowley
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
Obvious, so no need for paraphrase.
Post by Paul Crowley
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
when you grow in eternal lines within in duration
Post by Paul Crowley
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
Your growth is potentiated (Gosh, Vendler is smart) only by
the need for readers.
Post by Paul Crowley
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
So long as readers of this poem are available, this will keep
you alive.

I think you may be right that Vendler almost completely
disdains paraphrase. I say it's because the poem is
obvious AND because it has probably been paraphrased
many times. Vendler is out to reveal her discoveries about
it, not repeat what previous scholars have taken care of.

And she isn't bright enough to paraphrase all the sonnets, so
won't paraphrase any.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
because, unlike your hare-brained scattered
"interpretations," they fit the poem.
In fact, they almost invariably go wrong.
As is easy to show.
Why haven't you shown how they go wrong even once?
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
I would also
claim that ither of the two would make the kind
of full explication I did if anyone urgently
requested them to.  I'm also sure that some
scholar somewhere, sometime, has made an
explication of the poem like mine.
Nope.
Ah, you've checked with them on this.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Affection, the beauty of summer, the power of
art are commonplaces, but all poetry is
ultimately about commonplaces.
Crap.
Cite a poem considered by almost everyone to
be great that was not.  Keats's most famous
sonnet is about how the thrill he got from
reading a translation of Homer.  One of
Shelley's best-regarded poems is about a
skylark.  Wordsworth wrote a
terrific passage about how much he enjoyed ice-skating
as a boy.  Then there's Frost's poem about stopping
by woods on a snowy evening.  Almost all haiku are
about sommonplace things.  Basho's about a frog
jumping in a pond, for instance, which is the most
famous haiku and has been written about by literally
hundreds of people.  And hundreds of poets have
done variations on it.  It, in fact, is part of the definition of
the classical haiku that it be about a commonplace subject.
Williams's most famous poem is about nothing more
than a red wheelbarrow.
No one (except you) suggests that
these poems were merely about the
superficial subject.  On most of them
there are reams of essays outlining
their 'real' meaning.
They are all about what you call banalities
that their poems make significant, as this
poem in my interpretation--not my paraphrase--
demonstrates. They all start in banalites, and
a paraphrase of them will reveal hardly anything
but banalities.
Post by Paul Crowley
[..]
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1.   Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
"Would it be a good idea to make a comparison
of you to a day in the most pleasant of the four
seasons?"
You see?  It's total crap.
Do show how it fails to show exactly what the
line it's about literally means.
As anyone can see, IF the line meant
only what you say it meant, it would
be as worthless (and as ugly and as
inelegant) as your expression of it
I didn't t say it meant ONLY what I said it did.
Oh, yes you did.  What ELSE does any
of it mean?  You have not suggested
the faintest whisper.
Quote where I said it only meant what I
said it did. I clearly said I was out to
say what it literally means. I never said
or suggested that what it literally means
is all it means. In other posts I have
shown many times what it "means" beyond
what it literally says. In my many writings
on poems, I show what poems literally mean,
(although rarely in the kind of detail I did here),
then show what I find to be their larger meanings.
You have never researched what I do as a critic,
merely makes insanely erroneous assertions
about what I do.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
However, its only direct meaning is what I
said it was.  My expression of the meaning
was not intended to be beautiful or elegant,
just accurate.  If the line meant only what
I say it does, it would be beautiful for the
many reasons I gave for that in earlier posts
such as the liquidity of its diction, its internal
rhyme, and its central idea (the comparison of
a person to a summer's day, which I believe
was probably relatively fresh at the time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That
must also be why we like it so
much -- it's a fresh idea.
Did I say that? Obviously, I implied that WHEN
people first read it, they probably enjoyed the
freshness of its comparison AMONG many many
many other thing, excluding the references to the
court you insanely find in it.
Post by Paul Crowley
[..]
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Because the words of great poets
NEVER have shallow simple trivial
pointless meanings of the sort you
imagine
Have to be about important things like
kings and queens, and politics, not
beauty.  Who needs that?!
Only the truly ignorant assume that
such things don't determine how they
live (and often IF they live), and the
quality of their lives.
Very few poems are about these things.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
But you have agreed that what I say the
poem means is there.
I would not accept any of the garbage
you wrote in your 'paraphrase'.  The
'rural idyll' stuff in the Sonnet is never
spelt out -- let alone after the fashion
you state it.
So no one is compared to a summer's day?
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
You merely claim that it's not important.
It is no more than a vague superficial
theme.
Now you're accepting it. Watch out, Paul.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Your words could not possibly have
anything to do with the poet's
intention.
The poem had nothing to so with summer.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
And you have no need to demonstrate that,
the assertion of the Crowley is sufficient.
It is obvious to anyone with some slight
intelligence.
The assertion of the Crowley is sufficient.
Post by Paul Crowley
[..]
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
"You are superior to the summer's day
mentioned in both beauty and temperament."
Ergo, In other words, there's really no
you're much the better of the two.
[..]
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The final goal of the critic is to reveal what he
thinks is the Final Aesthetic Meaning of the
poem, and present his arguments for it.
Yeah, yeah.  The 'Final Aesthetic Meaning'.
What you really need is a new Post-Post-
Post-Post-Post-Modern ideology.  Isn't it
such a shame that Marx lost all credibility?
Who are our intellectual leaders now?
The Final Aesthetic Meaning is NOTHING like
what post-etc. critics are looking for.  They, in
fact, are mostly looking for crap like political
meanings the way you are.  I'm doing what
the "new critics" of 70 or more years ago did,
but which you obviously know nothing about
since you know nothing about poetry, poets, poems,
poetry criticism, aesthetics, poetics or anything
else relevant.
You can't tell us what the poem means, only that
it can't mean anything like what all poems for
thousands of years have meant.
One of the most baleful effects of
Stratfordianism (from the many to
choose from) is the belief that
poetry can be (or even should be)
about banalities.
Paul.- Hide quoted text -
Okay, we know poems can't be about the seasons,
or rough winds; can't be about the golden sun
or about clouds coming out, can't be about the
many beauties (or "faires") of a summer day.
Can't be about death or poetry. So, tell us
what they can be about.

--Bob
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-12 11:21:09 UTC
Permalink
Here's how I would paraphrase the poem in an
undetailed manner for the general public:

A poet is wondering whether it makes sense to
compare some unnamed person he is addressing
to a summer day. He suggests it would not
because the addressee is superior to a summer's
day in both beauty and serenity of disposition.
The speaker goes on to point out the flaws of
a summer day that the addressee, it is strongly
implied, does not have: occasionally violent winds
ruffle the new blossoms of early summer, perhaps
damaging them, and summer, as a whole, is of
short duration. Its sun is sometimes too hot, at
other times overcast. All the day's virtues will
eventually be lost, due (we are to suppose) to
vagaries like a sudden, or the normally uncertain
course of nature.

But the addressee's summer--his beauty and wonderful
disposition, that is--will never be lost: even after he dies,
he will continue to live in eternal lines of poetry: as long
as there are people around to read poetry, they'll read
this one and it will keep him alive.

Now, Paul, two challenges for you. Tell us in as simple
language as my description of my literal meaning for the
poem what your secondary "important" meaning is in
some coherent manner. If you can't do it, your meaning is
not there.

Secondly, tell us whether or not you truly believe that what I
say the poem literally means is too banal for any good poet
to consider writing a poem about. I want that on record.

--Bob
rainstorm
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Explicate (Websters)
1.    to make plain or clear; explain; interpret.
2.    to develop (a principle, theory, etc.)
(1) If you knew the first thing about poetics, you
would know that my meaning for "explication" is
the standard meaning for the word in the field of
poetics.
Quote some article on the web which
'analyses' poetry after your fashion.
(You might find some school-child
doing their homework, but you won't
get any one with a reputation.)
If Sonnet 18 conatins your insane interpretation of it,
you will be able to show where it does.  You can't.
You can only pick out scattered words that seem to
you to have something vaguely to do with the muddle
you consider your interpretation.  You can't even give
a general summary of your interpretation.  You're a moron
who doesn't know anything about poetry.  Your constant
requests that I run around the Internet to cite something
you require but will never recognize as what you're after
is mere evasion.
I will admit, however, that I now retract my claim that what
I did is an explication, although it can be called that.  I
checked the Princeton Encyclopedia, and it said, as I
thought it would, that the term is used in too many
different ways for it to be defined.  This leads me to the
position that if a person uses it, one needs to define what it
means to him before using it.
Rushing, I had forgotten about paraphrasing, which is actually
what I did.  Paraphrasing is, of course, an essential part of
exlpicating.  I would not say that there are two kinds of
paraphrases, denotational, which is what I did, and connotational,
which I would have done next.  A full paraphrase is a combination
of both.  An explication would be both plus, perhaps, discussions
of things like symbolic and archetypal value--I'm hazy on it now,
but it doesn't matter here.  You are not interested in any way of
looking at a poem other than finding Oxford and his friends in it.
Post by Paul Crowley
[..]
Post by Sharon Parrish
There is even a magazine published called "The
Explicator," which is devoted to explication as I
define it.
Not so.  The 'Explicator' seems to be a
more-or-less serious publication that
has competently written articles -- and
nothing like your infantile garbage.
Its articles do what I do and discuss it.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
How come that I cannot look up the
numerous books on the Sonnets (Booth,
Vendler, Duncan-Jones, Kerrigan, etc.,
etc.,) and get a similar 'explication'?
You can't from Booth or Vendler although I suspect they
could have if they'd wanted to.
How come I can't get one from
ANY such 'scholar'?
Probably because the explicit MEANING of the
poem is so obvious, no one sees the need to
explicate it.
Wrong. No one denies the complexity
and obscurity of most of the sonnets.
Almost everyone agrees that the explicit meaning
of most of the sonnets is obvious, except in spots,
which spots people like Vendler and Booth discuss.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
Although all these people explicate the bits
needing it.
As I just repeated.
Post by Paul Crowley
Wrong.  They sometimes pretend to
explain the easiest bits -- in a way not
unlike yours -- but only of small
phrases.  They are careful never to give
a full 'paraphrase' (after your fashion)
realising how stupid it looks.
[..]
Post by Sharon Parrish
I believe, and will check on this, that one could
make a full-scale explication of the poem based
on what Vendler or Booth say about--
Wrong.
1.   Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
Shal;l I compar thee to a summers day--it means exactly what it says
so Vendler has no need to tell us that; I did to show how a thorough
paraphrase works.
t means what it says.  "lovely" and "temperate" are "wooing words,"
so the speaker, for Vendler is wooing the addressee.
Post by Paul Crowley
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
Rough winds shake the buds of May (but leave them intact)
(here the poet begins denigrating the perfect day that
he is comparing the addressee to, to show the latter's
superiority to it, a course he will continue.)
Summer won't last long--here the speaker geins a series
of contrasts between the mutability of a summer's day and
the eternal summer of the addressee.  (Vendler is more
general than I--she does little paraphrasing but a lot
of explaining of an implied paraphrase, a paraphrase that
need not be done because clear to everyone; yours needs
to be done because unclear to everyone but you.
Post by Paul Crowley
5.   Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
Over the next four lines the speaker shows that all
things are undone "by one great agency or another."
The direct meaning of each lines needs no paraphrase
because obvious.  You, however, can hardly find one
line that can be paraphrased in a manner to show
the logic of your interpretation the way my paraphrase
shows the logic of mine that it is about a summer's day
in comparison to the addressee, and about the power of
poetry to immortalize.
Post by Paul Crowley
6.   And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
Obvious, so no parphrase is given.  Note: Vendler
is out to entertain readers, among other things.  I
wasn't.
Post by Paul Crowley
7.   And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
Obvious.
The direct meaning is clear so not needing paraphrase.  Vendler
adds that Shakespeare suggests some order to the breaking up
of the day by means of what she calls phonetic concatention,
but which I call alliteration.
Post by Paul Crowley
9.   But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
You will triumph over nature, your season will not fade.
Post by Paul Crowley
10.  Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
You'll keep all the virtues you have.
Post by Paul Crowley
11.  Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
Obvious, so no need for paraphrase.
Post by Paul Crowley
12.  When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
when you grow in eternal lines within in duration
Post by Paul Crowley
13.      So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
Your growth is potentiated (Gosh, Vendler is smart) only by
the need for readers.
Post by Paul Crowley
14.      So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
So long as readers of this poem are available, this will keep
you alive.
I think you may be right that Vendler almost completely
disdains paraphrase.  I say it's because the poem is
obvious AND because it has probably been paraphrased
many times.  Vendler is out to reveal her discoveries about
it, not repeat what previous scholars have taken care of.
And she isn't bright enough to paraphrase all the sonnets, so
won't paraphrase any.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
because, unlike your hare-brained scattered
"interpretations," they fit the poem.
In fact, they almost invariably go wrong.
As is easy to show.
Why haven't you shown how they go wrong even once?
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
I would also
claim that ither of the two would make the kind
of full explication I did if anyone urgently
requested them to.  I'm also sure that some
scholar somewhere, sometime, has made an
explication of the poem like mine.
Nope.
Ah, you've checked with them on this.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Affection, the beauty of summer, the power of
art are commonplaces, but all poetry is
ultimately about commonplaces.
Crap.
Cite a poem considered by almost everyone to
be great that was not.  Keats's most famous
sonnet is about how the thrill he got from
reading a translation of Homer.  One of
Shelley's best-regarded poems is about a
skylark.  Wordsworth wrote a
terrific passage about how much he enjoyed ice-skating
as a boy.  Then there's Frost's poem about stopping
by woods on a snowy evening.  Almost all haiku are
about sommonplace things.  Basho's about a frog
jumping in a pond, for instance, which is the most
famous haiku and has been written about by literally
hundreds of people.  And hundreds of poets have
done variations on it.  It, in fact, is part of the definition of
the classical haiku that it be about a commonplace subject.
Williams's most famous poem is about nothing more
than a red wheelbarrow.
No one (except you) suggests that
these poems were merely about the
superficial subject.  On most of them
there are reams of essays outlining
their 'real' meaning.
They are all about what you call banalities
that their poems make significant, as this
poem in my interpretation--not my paraphrase--
demonstrates.  They all start in banalites, and
a paraphrase of them will reveal hardly anything
but banalities.
Post by Paul Crowley
[..]
Post by Sharon Parrish
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1.   Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
"Would it be a good idea to make a comparison
of you to a day in the most pleasant of the four
seasons?"
You see?  It's total crap.
Do show how it fails to show exactly what the
line it's about literally means.
As anyone can see, IF the line meant
only what you say it meant, it would
be as worthless (and as ugly and as
inelegant) as your expression of it
I didn't t say it meant ONLY what I said it did.
Oh, yes you did.  What ELSE does any
of it mean?  You have not suggested
the faintest whisper.
Quote where I said it only meant what I
said it did.  I clearly said I was out to
say what it literally means.  I never said
or suggested that what it literally means
is all it means.  In other posts I have
shown many times what it "means" beyond
what it literally says.  In my many writings
on poems, I show what poems literally mean,
(although rarely in the kind of detail I did here),
then show what I find to be their larger meanings. ...
read more »- Hide quoted text -
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BCD
2010-04-12 18:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Here's how I would paraphrase the poem in an
A poet is wondering whether it makes sense to
compare some unnamed person he is addressing
to a summer day.  He suggests it would not [...]
***Is it that the Poet wonders whether it makes sense and decides that
it doesn't; or is it rather that he's saying, "Well, let's go ahead
and make this comparison, and here's how it turns out: You're this
way, Summer's that way, and you're better"?

Best Wishes,

--BCD
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-12 20:05:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by BCD
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Here's how I would paraphrase the poem in an
A poet is wondering whether it makes sense to
compare some unnamed person he is addressing
to a summer day.  He suggests it would not [...]
***Is it that the Poet wonders whether it makes sense and decides that
it doesn't; or is it rather that he's saying, "Well, let's go ahead
and make this comparison, and here's how it turns out:  You're this
way, Summer's that way, and you're better"?
Best Wishes,
--BCD
That was, is, a problem for me, too. I think it's impossible to
tell. A comparison is made, that's all we really know. I think I'll
mention both in my final denotational paraphrase.

--Bob
lackpurity
2010-04-13 17:34:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by BCD
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Here's how I would paraphrase the poem in an
A poet is wondering whether it makes sense to
compare some unnamed person he is addressing
to a summer day. �He suggests it would not [...]
***Is it that the Poet wonders whether it makes sense and decides that
it doesn't; or is it rather that he's saying, "Well, let's go ahead
and make this comparison, and here's how it turns out: �You're this
way, Summer's that way, and you're better"?
Best Wishes,
--BCD
You're right, BCD. Shakespeare is comparing this physical plane with
the Eternal plane. He says even Masters sometimes decline
(healthwise,) so the Eternal plane should be our goal, if we want to
rise above this ephemeral world, where nothing remains the same, and
change is the order of the day. Even life at its best is not that
great, but the ineffable True Home is.

Michael Martin
Paul Crowley
2010-04-12 19:49:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Here's how I would paraphrase the poem in an
A poet is wondering whether it makes sense to
compare some unnamed person he is addressing
to a summer day. He suggests it would not
because the addressee is superior to a summer's
day in both beauty and serenity of disposition.
The speaker goes on to point out the flaws of
a summer day that the addressee, it is strongly
implied, does not have: occasionally violent
winds ruffle the new blossoms of early summer,
perhaps damaging them, and summer, as a
whole, is of short duration. Its sun is
sometimes too hot, at other times overcast. All
the day's virtues will eventually be lost, due (we
are to suppose) to vagaries like a sudden, or the
normally uncertain course of nature.
But the addressee's summer--his beauty and
even after he dies, he will continue to live in
eternal lines of poetry: as long as there are
people around to read poetry, they'll read this
one and it will keep him alive.
Now, Paul, two challenges for you. Tell us in as
simple language as my description of my literal
meaning for the poem what your secondary
"important" meaning is in some coherent
manner. If you can't do it, your meaning is not
there.
That is the purest nonsense. Life is
complicated and the words that try to
truthfully describe people and events are
often even more so. Would you expect
a 'Sparknotes' paraphrase of Hamlet to
get to the core of (what you see as) the
most important issues? Or even raise
them?

The opposite is the case. A poem that
reflects, and arises out of, real human
experience must necessarily be complex,
full of mysteries, doubts, uncertainties
and ambiguities, and forged by complex
emotions, love, anger, despair, etc.,
often demonstrated by irony or sarcasm,
or even incoherence.

1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
2. Thou art more louely and more temperate:
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of Maie,
4. And Sommers lease hath all too short a date:
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
8. By chance, or natures changing course vntrim'd:
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor loose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breath or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,

1. Should I yet again make the hackneyed
comparison between you and Mary QS
(now Darnley's fuck).

2. You are more loving (irony) and lovely
(even more ironic) but more temperate
(since Mary QS is off the scale at the
other end). Also remember that I'm
alluding to the plans for that friendly
meeting in York where you were to be
'Prudence' and she was to be
'Temperance'.

3. Mary QS seems to have become
something of a sex addict (not promising
for the future of her reign) and she is
being buffeted by the normal gales of
Scottish politics. as well as assailed by
that rough wind Ruth-ven.

4. Darnley's patience has run out,
shorting the life of his wife's short date,
Riccio.

And so on and on. I hate doing this of
thing because (a) the poet expresses
it infinitely better, and (b) too much of
the subtlety, the meaning, the ambiguity,
the punning, the poet's variation of tone,
and much else, is lost.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Secondly, tell us whether or not you truly
believe that what I say the poem literally means
is too banal for any good poet to consider
writing a poem about. I want that on record.
Definitely -- especially when you say it.


Paul.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-12 21:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Here's how I would paraphrase the poem in an
A poet is wondering whether it makes sense to
compare some unnamed person he is addressing
to a summer day.  He suggests it would not
because the addressee is superior to a summer's
day in both beauty and serenity of disposition.
The speaker goes on to point out the flaws of
a summer day that the addressee, it is strongly
implied, does not have: occasionally violent
winds ruffle the new blossoms of early summer,
perhaps damaging them, and summer, as a
whole, is of short duration.  Its sun is
sometimes too hot, at other times overcast.  All
the day's virtues will eventually be lost, due (we
are to suppose) to vagaries like a sudden, or the
normally uncertain course of nature.
But the addressee's summer--his beauty and
even after he dies, he will continue to live in
eternal lines of poetry: as long as there are
people around to read poetry, they'll read this
one and it will keep him alive.
Now, Paul, two challenges for you.  Tell us in as
simple language as my description of my literal
meaning for the poem what your secondary
"important" meaning is in some coherent
manner.  If you can't do it, your meaning is not
there.
That is the purest nonsense. Life is
complicated and the words that try to
truthfully describe people and events are
often even more so.   Would you expect
a 'Sparknotes' paraphrase of Hamlet to
get to the core of (what you see as) the
most important issues?  Or even raise
them?
The opposite is the case. A poem that
reflects, and arises out of, real human
 experience must necessarily be complex,
full of mysteries, doubts, uncertainties
and ambiguities, and forged by complex
emotions, love, anger, despair, etc.,
often demonstrated by irony or sarcasm,
or even incoherence.
1.  Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3.  Rough windes do shake the darling buds of Maie,
5.  Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6.  And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7.  And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9.  But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10.  Nor loose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11.  Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12.  When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13.    So long as men can breath or eyes can see,
14.    So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
1. Should I yet again make the hackneyed
comparison between you and Mary QS
(now Darnley's fuck).
There's nothing whatever to indicate the speaker
considers the comparison hackneyed, or that
he has previously made it. (And you left out
you as Elizabeth.)
Post by Paul Crowley
2.  You are more loving (irony)
Why irony?
Post by Paul Crowley
and lovely
(even more ironic)
You can't arbitrarily decide it's irony. Do you
have a letter of Oxford's speaking of how ugly
Elizabeth was compared to Mary?
Post by Paul Crowley
but more temperate
(since Mary QS is off the scale at the
other end).  Also remember that I'm
alluding to the plans for that friendly
meeting in York where you were to be
'Prudence' and she was to be
'Temperance'.
So far you make sense, if one accepts your
horribly strained puns and references, and
your arbitrary certainty that the poem must
be about Mary and Darnley, and addressed to
Elizabeth.
Post by Paul Crowley
3.  Mary QS seems to have become
something of a sex addict (not promising
for the future of her reign) and she is
being buffeted by the normal gales of
Scottish politics. as well as assailed by
that rough wind Ruth-ven.
The normal gales of Scottish politics is nowhere
in the line, unless you take "rough" to allude
to anything whatever that can buffet.

You've said in your first line that Mary is
Darnley's fuck; now you suddenly have
Ruthven having his way with her.
Post by Paul Crowley
4. Darnley's patience has run out,
shorting the life of his wife's short date,
Riccio.
Summer's (Darnley's) lease (patience) has
all to short a date, you're saying.

See, it's not so hard. But you can't keep it up..

But why is Darnley out of patience concerning
Riccio when in the line just before it is Ruthven
who is having his way with Mary, not Riccio? You've
lost narrative logic. after not having much of it.
Post by Paul Crowley
And so on and on.  I hate doing this of
thing because (a) the poet expresses
it infinitely better, and (b) too much of
the subtlety, the meaning, the ambiguity,
the punning, the poet's variation of tone,
and much else, is lost.
You have to do it if you want to show that the
words of the poem can actually support your
interpretation. In doing so, your aim is not
capturing the full beauty and meaning of the
poem, but simply revealing the basic literal
meaning(s) of it. A critic won't stop there,
but once what the poem is literally about is
exposed, he will try to show how the poet's
treatment of it makes it beautiful, meaningful,
unbanal.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Secondly, tell us whether or not you truly
believe that what I say the poem literally means
is too banal for any good poet to consider
writing a poem about.  I want that on record.
Definitely -- especially when you say it.
Paul.- Hide quoted text -
So, according to you, a summer day is too banal to
praise in a poem. The sun's gold complexion could
never be a serious poet's subject, nor clouds, nor
wind-shaken buds. Nor the power of poetry to
immortalize--although it would seem that many
poets considered great wrote poems on just that
theme.

motionless white cloud,
all the sun's gold behind it;
May buds, wind-shaken

Simple not particularly good classical
haiku taken out of Sonet 18 for the hell of it
Just a banal image-cluster, with a contrast
between motionless cloud, moving buds.

I'm sure a better one could be made of
Darnley and Ruthven Screwing Mary,
and Scottish politics getting out of hand,
and a murder to come. But I'm not up
to it.

--Bob
Paul Crowley
2010-04-13 11:13:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Now, Paul, two challenges for you. Tell us in as
simple language as my description of my literal
meaning for the poem what your secondary
"important" meaning is in some coherent
manner. If you can't do it, your meaning is not
there.
That is the purest nonsense. Life is
complicated and the words that try to
truthfully describe people and events are
often even more so. Would you expect
a 'Sparknotes' paraphrase of Hamlet to
get to the core of (what you see as) the
most important issues? Or even raise
them?
The opposite is the case. A poem that
reflects, and arises out of, real human
experience must necessarily be complex,
full of mysteries, doubts, uncertainties
and ambiguities, and forged by complex
emotions, love, anger, despair, etc.,
often demonstrated by irony or sarcasm,
or even incoherence.
Why no response here?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of Maie,
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor loose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breath or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
1. Should I yet again make the hackneyed
comparison between you and Mary QS
(now Darnley's fuck).
There's nothing whatever to indicate the speaker
considers the comparison hackneyed, or that
he has previously made it. (And you left out
you as Elizabeth.)
There is nothing in the Sonnet (as
such) to indicate Elizabeth. But, as
you well know, I date it to about April
1566, sent by the 16-year-old genius
poet Oxford to Elizabeth about the
current situation in Scotland, and
I read the Sonnet in that well-known
and highly-developed context.

Ignoring implications for poetry for
the moment, I am putting forward an
integrated set of historical propositions.
The only question is "Are they true or
false?" You must maintain that they
are completely false and that the
Sonnet has no more to do with
Elizabeth, Mary QS, Darnley, Riccio
and Ruthven, than it does to the
battle of Marathon, or to Christ's
crucifixion. You must maintain that
EACH of my propositions is utter
nonsense.

How come you can't show that?
How come that you don't even think
to try?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
There's nothing whatever to indicate the speaker
considers the comparison hackneyed
In April 1566, the comparison was
hackneyed. Everyone had made it,
and made it often.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
2. You are more loving (irony)
Why irony?
Both monarchs made a big deal out
of the extent to which they loved their
people. It was not a topic that an
intelligent courtier could discuss
without irony,
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
and lovely (even more ironic)
You can't arbitrarily decide it's irony. Do you
have a letter of Oxford's speaking of how ugly
Elizabeth was compared to Mary?
We have loads of detailed records
about such comparisons, and the
interest of both queens in them.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
but more temperate
(since Mary QS is off the scale at the
other end). Also remember that I'm
alluding to the plans for that friendly
meeting in York where you were to be
'Prudence' and she was to be
'Temperance'.
So far you make sense, if one accepts your
horribly strained puns and references,
That's the point -- and the only point.
It you accept that, you must forget
Stratfordianism.

My reading would not, and could not,
make sense if it was based on a fantasy.
If you (or any other Strat) can't come up
with a reading as plausible, relating it to
some other event (say Christ's crucifixion)
then you can no longer in the Stratman.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
3. Mary QS seems to have become
something of a sex addict (not promising
for the future of her reign) and she is
being buffeted by the normal gales of
Scottish politics. as well as assailed by
that rough wind Ruth-ven.
The normal gales of Scottish politics is nowhere
in the line, unless you take "rough" to allude
to anything whatever that can buffet.
You've said in your first line that Mary is
Darnley's fuck; now you suddenly have
Ruthven having his way with her.
Ruthven had his way with her only in
the sense of his utter brutality, when
he invaded her privacy, and stabbed
Riccio, while he was trying to hide
behind her.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
4. Darnley's patience has run out,
shorting the life of his wife's short date,
Riccio.
Summer's (Darnley's) lease (patience) has
all to short a date, you're saying.
See, it's not so hard. But you can't keep it up..
I can keep it up for the whole Sonnet
and numerous other sonnets.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
But why is Darnley out of patience concerning
Riccio when in the line just before it is Ruthven
who is having his way with Mary, not Riccio? You've
lost narrative logic. after not having much of it.
You simply have not read my stuff, and
are ignorant of the history of the times.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
And so on and on. I hate doing this of
thing because (a) the poet expresses
it infinitely better, and (b) too much of
the subtlety, the meaning, the ambiguity,
the punning, the poet's variation of tone,
and much else, is lost.
You have to do it if you want to show that the
words of the poem can actually support your
interpretation.
If you can't see how my explanation
applies to (a) the words of the sonnet
and (b) the history of the time, then my
doing a stupid misleading 'paraphrase'
is not going to help.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
In doing so, your aim is not
capturing the full beauty and meaning of the
poem, but simply revealing the basic literal
meaning(s) of it.
I don't accept the notion of 'basic literal
meaning'.
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I'm sure a better one could be made of
Darnley and Ruthven Screwing Mary,
and Scottish politics getting out of hand,
and a murder to come. But I'm not up
to it.
Not one Strat (or quasi-Strat) has ever
been up to it -- not for any Sonnet nor
for any supposed events that the
Stratman might have been likely to
write about.

It can't be done, unless you get right
the events the poet had in mind, and
tone and manner in which he was
likely to describe them to his beloved.


Paul.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-13 22:36:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Now, Paul, two challenges for you.  Tell us in as
simple language as my description of my literal
meaning for the poem what your secondary
"important" meaning is in some coherent
manner.  If you can't do it, your meaning is not
there.
That is the purest nonsense. Life is
complicated and the words that try to
truthfully describe people and events are
often even more so.   Would you expect
a 'Sparknotes' paraphrase of Hamlet to
get to the core of (what you see as) the
most important issues?  Or even raise
them?
The opposite is the case. A poem that
reflects, and arises out of, real human
 experience must necessarily be complex,
full of mysteries, doubts, uncertainties
and ambiguities, and forged by complex
emotions, love, anger, despair, etc.,
often demonstrated by irony or sarcasm,
or even incoherence.
Why no response here?
Sorry. It was meaningless bullshit, so I didn't bother with it.
Certainly many poems have the characteristics you note,
but many of the greatest don't. And whether they have
these characteristics or not is something to be determined
AFTER their literal meaning has been revealed.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
1.  Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3.  Rough windes do shake the darling buds of Maie,
5.  Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6.  And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7.  And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9.  But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10.  Nor loose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11.  Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12.  When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13.    So long as men can breath or eyes can see,
14.    So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
1. Should I yet again make the hackneyed
comparison between you and Mary QS
(now Darnley's fuck).
There's nothing whatever to indicate the speaker
considers the comparison hackneyed, or that
he has previously made it.  (And you left out
you as Elizabeth.)
There is nothing in the Sonnet (as
such) to indicate Elizabeth. But, as
you well know, I date it to about April
1566, sent by the 16-year-old genius
poet Oxford to Elizabeth about the
current situation in Scotland, and
I read the Sonnet in that well-known
and highly-developed context.
You pre-interpret the poem with no evidence
for your pre-interpretation (that it was written
by Oxford in 1566 to the queen about Scotland,
four things you simply assert, with nothing in
the poem to support any of them, and the
evidence solidly against one, as well as our
knowledge of creativity and of Oxford, the first
indicating that no other 16-year-old ever wrote such
a fine poem, even Chatterton, the second concerning
Oxford's know poems, none of which comes close
to be as good as this one.
Post by Paul Crowley
Ignoring implications for poetry for
the moment, I am putting forward an
integrated set of historical propositions.
The only question is "Are they true or
false?"  You must maintain that they
are completely false and that the
Sonnet has no more to do with
Elizabeth, Mary QS, Darnley, Riccio
and Ruthven, than it does to the
battle of Marathon, or to Christ's
crucifixion.  You must maintain that
EACH of my propositions is utter
nonsense.
You are insane. All I need maintain is that
your interpretation is implausible, as I have,
showing WHY it is implausible.
Post by Paul Crowley
How come you can't show that?
How come that you don't even think
to try?
As I've been telling you in this thread,
one reason is that you present no coherent
paraphrase of the poem to indicate that
one can reasonably interpreta as you do.
That you haven't, and seem unable to,
is strong evidence that your interpretation
is hogwash.

If I say, "Jack jumped over the candlestick,"
is about Columbus discovering America because
"candlestick" begins with the same letter as
Columbus's name, it is not enough to make
my reading plausible. I must show how
"candlestick," taken to represent Columbus
interacts with the rest of the text to say something
coherent that has to do with Columbus's discovering
America. I could say that "humped over" equals
broke the paradigm that ships sailing too far west
would perish, and I could say "Jack" means "ship"
in some Hungarian dialect, but I'd still only have
"ship breaks paradigm concerning the danger of
sailing west Columbus," which is clumsy, so
unlikely to have been intended. If all the other
lines come out as badly and don't connect
smoothly with the narrative this one is telling
my interpretation can be dismissed. So it is with
your interpretation of Sonnet 18.

The fact that you alone say it isn't and that neither
I nor anyone else can or has presented an argument
against it is irrelevant.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
There's nothing whatever to indicate the speaker
considers the comparison hackneyed
In April 1566, the comparison was
hackneyed. Everyone had made it,
and made it often.
Quote one who did and what he said. Quote one
witness claiming it was hackneyed. Tell us why
the poem is universailly admired by people believing
the hackneyed comparison was made.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
2.  You are more loving (irony)
Why irony?
Both monarchs made a big deal out
of the extent to which they loved their
people.  It was not a topic that an
intelligent courtier could discuss
without irony,
In the first place, it doesn't say "you are more
loving"; it says, "you are more lovely." There's
no reason to believe in the context of the poem
that it had anything to do with love for any group
of people. Nor is your assertion about an
intelligent courtier anything but a moronic assertion.
An intelligent courtier could absolutely believe
either woman was sincerely doing best for her subjects,
and could discuss it without irony, or could not believe
it but discuss it without irony.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
and lovely (even more ironic)
You can't arbitrarily decide it's irony.  Do you
have a letter of Oxford's speaking of how ugly
Elizabeth was compared to Mary?
We have loads of detailed records
about such comparisons, and the
interest of both queens in them.
Cite just one in which the queen is called unlovely.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
but more temperate
(since Mary QS is off the scale at the
other end).  Also remember that I'm
alluding to the plans for that friendly
meeting in York where you were to be
'Prudence' and she was to be
'Temperance'.
So far you make sense, if one accepts your
horribly strained puns and references,
That's the point -- and the only point.
It you accept that, you must forget
Stratfordianism.
Wrong. Your puns aren't there, and the connections
you make are trivial. Many other narratives could be
made up if so few connections are needed. But, no,
I don't have time to make them. That's for wacks.
Hal can and has done it. Marlovians have, too. I suspect
every wack has put together an interpretation of this
soone the same way you have. Start with the right
person writing it at the right time about the same very
general topic, then find words in it that connect to
that topic--without worrying about making a sensible
coherent narrative of it.
Post by Paul Crowley
My reading would not, and could not,
make sense if it was based on a fantasy.
If you (or any other Strat) can't come up
with a reading as plausible, relating it to
some other event (say Christ's crucifixion)
then you can no longer in the Stratman.
My reading of it is infinitely more plausible than
yours.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
3.  Mary QS seems to have become
something of a sex addict (not promising
for the future of her reign) and she is
being buffeted by the normal gales of
Scottish politics. as well as assailed by
that rough wind Ruth-ven.
The normal gales of Scottish politics is nowhere
in the line, unless you take "rough" to allude
to anything whatever that can buffet.
You've said in your first line that Mary is
Darnley's fuck; now you suddenly have
Ruthven having his way with her.
Ruthven had his way with her only in
the sense of his utter brutality, when
he invaded her privacy, and stabbed
Riccio, while he was trying to hide
behind her.
That made her boobs shake?
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
4. Darnley's patience has run out,
shorting the life of his wife's short date,
Riccio.
Summer's (Darnley's) lease (patience) has
all to short a date, you're saying.
See, it's not so hard.  But you can't keep it up..
I can keep it up for the whole Sonnet
and numerous other sonnets.
Do so for this one alone.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
But why is Darnley out of patience concerning
Riccio when in the line just before it is Ruthven
who is having his way with Mary, not Riccio?  You've
lost narrative logic. after not having much of it.
You simply have not read my stuff, and
are ignorant of the history of the times.
It doesn't matter. I'm only talking about the logic
of the line. For you, the sonnet says Ruthven is
shaking Mary, and Darnley has lost patience
concerning Riccio. You're just pulling references
to what you think was going on in Britain then,
not trying at all to reveal some kind of narrative.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
And so on and on.  I hate doing this of
thing because (a) the poet expresses
it infinitely better, and (b) too much of
the subtlety, the meaning, the ambiguity,
the punning, the poet's variation of tone,
and much else, is lost.
You have to do it if you want to show that the
words of the poem can actually support your
interpretation.
If you can't see how my explanation
applies to (a) the words of the sonnet
and (b) the history of the time, then my
doing a stupid misleading 'paraphrase'
is not going to help.
The words have to connect to your
explanation; it they do, it should be easy
to show they do--you at least try to show the
connection of "summer" to Darnley. Why
can't you do this with the poem's other words?

I connected all the words of the sonnet but "to time" to
my interpretation of it.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
In doing so, your aim is not
capturing the full beauty and meaning of the
poem, but simply revealing the basic literal
meaning(s) of it.
I don't accept the notion of 'basic literal
meaning'.
[..]
That is completely insane.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I'm sure a better one could be made of
Darnley and Ruthven Screwing Mary,
and Scottish politics getting out of hand,
and a murder to come.  But I'm not up
to it.
Not one Strat (or quasi-Strat) has ever
been up to it -- not for any Sonnet nor
for any supposed events that the
Stratman might have been likely to
write about.
But poets don't necessarily write about "events."
There's no evidence that this one was about any
particular event, other than an attempt to compare
someone to a summer's day in a poem.
Post by Paul Crowley
It can't be done, unless you get right
the events the poet had in mind, and
tone and manner in which he was
likely to describe them to his beloved.
Yes, but how do you know you're right and
everyone else wrong? You can only keep on
asserting that you are because you say
you are. I wish I could do that. Today I played
tennis, doubles, and I an my partner won two sets
and lost a third. I wish I could say we won all three
but all my good shots in one of them were called
bad, and my partner and the other team said we
lost it, but we didn't. Because I say we didn't.

Have fun in your little egg of psychotic certainty, Paul.
I was hoping I could get you to show how Sonnet 18
could be interpreted as you want to interpret it, and
use it as an example of how not to interpret poems,
but you do too bad a job of it to allow me to do that.
So I'm giving it up.

You can go play others confident that you've never missed
a shot or lost a point, regardless of what anyone else says.

--Bob
Paul Crowley
2010-04-14 14:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Now, Paul, two challenges for you. Tell us in as
simple language as my description of my literal
meaning for the poem what your secondary
"important" meaning is in some coherent
manner. If you can't do it, your meaning is not
there.
That is the purest nonsense. Life is
complicated and the words that try to
truthfully describe people and events are
often even more so. Would you expect
a 'Sparknotes' paraphrase of Hamlet to
get to the core of (what you see as) the
most important issues? Or even raise
them?
The opposite is the case. A poem that
reflects, and arises out of, real human
experience must necessarily be complex,
full of mysteries, doubts, uncertainties
and ambiguities, and forged by complex
emotions, love, anger, despair, etc.,
often demonstrated by irony or sarcasm,
or even incoherence.
Why no response here?
Sorry. It was meaningless bullshit, so I didn't
bother with it. Certainly many poems have the
characteristics you note, but many of the
greatest don't. And whether they have these
characteristics or not is something to be
determined AFTER their literal meaning has
been revealed.
So the issue of whether or not a
poem has a simple literal meaning
can be dealt with only after first
setting out that simple literal
meaning?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of Maie,
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor loose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breath or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
1. Should I yet again make the hackneyed
comparison between you and Mary QS
(now Darnley's fuck).
There's nothing whatever to indicate the speaker
considers the comparison hackneyed, or that
he has previously made it. (And you left out
you as Elizabeth.)
There is nothing in the Sonnet (as
such) to indicate Elizabeth. But, as
you well know, I date it to about April
1566, sent by the 16-year-old genius
poet Oxford to Elizabeth about the
current situation in Scotland, and
I read the Sonnet in that well-known
and highly-developed context.
You pre-interpret the poem with no evidence for
your pre-interpretation (that it was written by
Oxford in 1566 to the queen about Scotland, four
things you simply assert, with nothing in the
poem to support any of them,
I simply identify the subject matter of
the poem. It is a coded message, and
the code is fairly easily broken once
you are not blinded by Stratfordian
crapology.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and the evidence solidly against one,
What evidence against which one?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
as well as our knowledge of creativity and of
Oxford, the first indicating that no other 16-year-
old ever wrote such a fine poem, even
Chatterton,
This really should not be a problem.
There is nothing in the Sonnet that
requires maturity -- and we agree that
the poet was a genius.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
the second concerning Oxford's know poems,
This is more nonsense. The authorship
of 'his known poems' is guesswork. If he
did write any in that 'collection' then he
wrote them when he was even younger.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Ignoring implications for poetry for
the moment, I am putting forward an
integrated set of historical propositions.
The only question is "Are they true or
false?" You must maintain that they
are completely false and that the
Sonnet has no more to do with
Elizabeth, Mary QS, Darnley, Riccio
and Ruthven, than it does to the
battle of Marathon, or to Christ's
crucifixion. You must maintain that
EACH of my propositions is utter
nonsense.
You are insane. All I need maintain is that
your interpretation is implausible, as I have,
showing WHY it is implausible.
Where and when did you do this?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
How come you can't show that?
How come that you don't even think
to try?
As I've been telling you in this thread,
one reason is that you present no coherent
paraphrase of the poem to indicate that
one can reasonably interpreta as you do.
This 'objection' is entirely fake. I am
putting forward a set of _historical_
claims, and even if your absurd point
about reading poetry had some validity
(which it doesn't) it would still be
completely irrelevant.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
That you haven't, and seem unable to,
is strong evidence that your interpretation
is hogwash.
Read that sentence again slowly,
and see if you can work out where
you go wrong.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
If I say, "Jack jumped over the candlestick," is
about Columbus discovering America because
"candlestick" begins with the same letter as
Columbus's name, it is not enough to make my
reading plausible.
Really? Such logic.

[garbage deleted}
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
So it is with your interpretation of Sonnet 18.
Note how your only aim is to avoid
discussing my interpretation of
Sonnet 18
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The fact that you alone say it isn't and that
neither I nor anyone else can or has presented
an argument against it is irrelevant.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
There's nothing whatever to indicate the speaker
considers the comparison hackneyed
In April 1566, the comparison was
hackneyed. Everyone had made it,
and made it often.
Quote one who did and what he said.
It's in most history books about the
period.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
2. You are more loving (irony)
Why irony?
Both monarchs made a big deal out
of the extent to which they loved their
people. It was not a topic that an
intelligent courtier could discuss
without irony,
In the first place, it doesn't say "you are more
loving"; it says, "you are more lovely."
If you had ever studied Sonnet 18 you
would know that 'lovely' could mean
'loving' in Elizabethan English.

'Lovely' (OED)
1602 Narcissus (1893) 129 Wee are . . the kings owne lovely subiects.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Nor is your assertion about an
intelligent courtier anything but a moronic
assertion. An intelligent courtier could absolutely
believe either woman was sincerely doing best
for her subjects
Yeah, yeah. He would understand exactly
why both queens did it, and had to do it.
Henry VIII and previous monarchs never
made much of their 'love' for their subjects
-- since they relied mostly on fear.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and could discuss it without irony, or could not
believe it but discuss it without irony.
And if they were yeomen or Americans
they'd believe irony was something their
wives used to press shirts.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
So far you make sense, if one accepts your
horribly strained puns and references,
That's the point -- and the only point.
It you accept that, you must forget
Stratfordianism.
Wrong. Your puns aren't there
So says the expert on punning.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and the connections you make are trivial. Many
other narratives could be made up if so few
connections are needed.
Strats (and quasi-Strats) have been trying
to create narratives for centuries. But
none have got anywhere.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
But, no, I don't have time to make them.
Sure, sure.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
That's for wacks. Hal can and has done it.
I think you mean 'Hank'. You don't
quote his efforts -- or those of anyone
else -- because they are embarrassingly
bad. Do you want to see his stuff on
Sonnet 18?

You accept that my reading makes
sense. You will not be able to do that
with Hank or anyone else.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Marlovians have, too.
Not one has made the attempt.
Marlites are usually careful to
avoid the sonnets.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I suspect every wack has put together an
interpretation of this soone the same way you
have. Start with the right person writing it at the
right time about the same very general topic,
then find words in it that connect to that topic--
without worrying about making a sensible
coherent narrative of it.
All attempts at decoding a message
are beyond the hopeless when you
don't have the context. Could the
Pentagon make sense of a coded
German message about U-boats if
they thought it was a Japanese one
about kamikaze pilots?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
My reading would not, and could not,
make sense if it was based on a fantasy.
If you (or any other Strat) can't come up
with a reading as plausible, relating it to
some other event (say Christ's crucifixion)
then you can no longer in the Stratman.
My reading of it is infinitely more plausible than
yours.
I do NOT deny the shallow theme about
the weather (as I have told you an infinite
number of times). The poet was exploiting
ambiguity. But I know that you will never
grasp that concept.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Ruthven had his way with her only in
the sense of his utter brutality, when
he invaded her privacy, and stabbed
Riccio, while he was trying to hide
behind her.
That made her boobs shake?
Yes. It was an intensely violent scene.
And Mary, as ever, shook with sobs.

BUT the poet also had in mind the
overnight 30-mile horse-back ride,
often at a gallop, that Mary made from
Edinburgh to Dunbar, on escaping from
Ruthven and his gang a day later.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
4. Darnley's patience has run out,
shorting the life of his wife's short date,
Riccio.
Summer's (Darnley's) lease (patience) has
all to short a date, you're saying.
See, it's not so hard. But you can't keep it up..
I can keep it up for the whole Sonnet
and numerous other sonnets.
Do so for this one alone.
I will, in another post.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
But why is Darnley out of patience concerning
Riccio when in the line just before it is Ruthven
who is having his way with Mary, not Riccio? You've
lost narrative logic. after not having much of it.
You simply have not read my stuff, and
are ignorant of the history of the times.
It doesn't matter. I'm only talking about the logic
of the line. For you, the sonnet says Ruthven is
shaking Mary, and Darnley has lost patience
concerning Riccio.
The line is full of ambiguity (that
concept you find so mysterious) but
the main theme is (a) Darnley shakes
Mary -- in their rough sexual windings;
and (b) later Darnley gets jealous about
her 'short date'.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You're just pulling references to what you think
was going on in Britain then, not trying at all to
reveal some kind of narrative.
The poet did not need to tell a story
to Elizabeth. Everyone in the English
court knew it. If you were to write a
poem about 9/11 would you set out
a narrative? Isn't it enough to refer to
the dominant images.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
If you can't see how my explanation
applies to (a) the words of the sonnet
and (b) the history of the time, then my
doing a stupid misleading 'paraphrase'
is not going to help.
The words have to connect to your
explanation; it they do, it should be easy
to show they do--you at least try to show the
connection of "summer" to Darnley. Why
can't you do this with the poem's other words?
I have done it with the other words.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I connected all the words of the sonnet but "to
time" to my interpretation of it.
Big deal. I have told you -- often -- that
I don't dispute the banal 'interpretation'.
The poet fully intended that -- for the
fools.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
It can't be done, unless you get right
the events the poet had in mind, and
tone and manner in which he was
likely to describe them to his beloved.
Yes, but how do you know you're right and
everyone else wrong?
I have stated the tests to be applied.
You don't dispute them. You don't
consider them. It's the "I can't be
bothered" line -- the head in the sand
attitude.

I can't force you to apply the tests,
in much the same way as Galileo
could not force the papal astronomers
to look through his telescope, or
explain how Venus had phases.
So you can ignore them indefinitely.
Indeed, I know full well that you will,
and you must, as will and must almost
all other Strats and quasi-Strats.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You can only keep on asserting that you are
because you say you are.
I have given you the tests.
I can do no more than that.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I wish I could do that.
Today I played tennis, doubles, and I an my
partner won two sets and lost a third. I wish I
could say we won all three but all my good
shots in one of them were called bad, and my
partner and the other team said we lost it, but
we didn't. Because I say we didn't.
The test of whether the ball falls inside
or outside the line is objective enough.
So are the tests of whether or not an
explanation matches the words of a
Sonnet and the facts of an historical
episode.

You accept that my reading makes
sense. Yet you cannot accept the
simple logic that the author must
have intended that sense. You
apparently claim that I have some
strange genius -- far superior to any
possessed by any Strat or quasi-
Strat -- in that I can somehow attach
the words of the Sonnet to events
which the author never imagined.


Paul.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-14 17:17:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
Sorry.  It was meaningless bullshit, so I didn't
bother with it. Certainly many poems have the
characteristics you note, but many of the
greatest don't.  And whether they have these
characteristics or not is something to be
determined AFTER their literal meaning has
been revealed.
So the issue of whether or not a
poem has a simple literal meaning
can be dealt with only after first
setting out that simple literal
meaning?
I'm not sure how long I'll waste time on this post,
but I'll answer this. All poems have some
literal meaning. One uses the words of
the poem to figure out what it is for oneself
and if just about all other knowledgeable
readers agree 90% or more with you, your
interpretation has to be considered accurate.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
1.  Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3.  Rough windes do shake the darling buds of Maie,
5.  Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6.  And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7.  And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9.  But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10.  Nor loose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11.  Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12.  When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13.    So long as men can breath or eyes can see,
14.    So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
1. Should I yet again make the hackneyed
comparison between you and Mary QS
(now Darnley's fuck).
There's nothing whatever to indicate the speaker
considers the comparison hackneyed, or that
he has previously made it.  (And you left out
you as Elizabeth.)
There is nothing in the Sonnet (as
such) to indicate Elizabeth. But, as
you well know, I date it to about April
1566, sent by the 16-year-old genius
poet Oxford to Elizabeth about the
current situation in Scotland, and
I read the Sonnet in that well-known
and highly-developed context.
You pre-interpret the poem with no evidence for
your pre-interpretation (that it was written by
Oxford in 1566 to the queen about Scotland, four
things you simply assert, with nothing in the
poem to support any of them,
I simply identify the subject matter of
the poem.  It is a coded message, and
the code is fairly easily broken once
you are not blinded by Stratfordian
crapology.
Yes, but the literal message does not
disappear because you think you can "decode" it/
Post by Paul Crowley
and the evidence solidly against one,
What evidence against which one?
Who wrote the poem. Don't bother refuting
this. We know your answer.
Post by Paul Crowley
as well as our knowledge of creativity and of
Oxford, the first indicating that no other 16-year-
old ever wrote such a fine poem, even
Chatterton,
This really should not be a problem.
There is nothing in the Sonnet that
requires maturity -- and we agree that
the poet was a genius.
Something unprecedented requires better
evidence than you have. Of course, only
you believe the poem requires maturity.
Although if it has what you think it does,
it has the most incredible mix of immaturity
and maturity I know of.
Post by Paul Crowley
the second concerning Oxford's known poems,
This is more nonsense. The authorship
of 'his known poems' is guesswork. If he
did write any in that 'collection' then he
wrote them when he was even younger.
Isn't unfalsifiability great!
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Paul Crowley
Ignoring implications for poetry for
the moment, I am putting forward an
integrated set of historical propositions.
The only question is "Are they true or
false?"  You must maintain that they
are completely false and that the
Sonnet has no more to do with
Elizabeth, Mary QS, Darnley, Riccio
and Ruthven, than it does to the
battle of Marathon, or to Christ's
crucifixion.  You must maintain that
EACH of my propositions is utter
nonsense.
You are insane.  All I need maintain is that
your interpretation is implausible, as I have,
showing WHY it is implausible.
Where and when did you do this?
Isn't obtuse denial great?
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Paul Crowley
How come you can't show that?
How come that you don't even think
to try?
As I've been telling you in this thread,
one reason is that you present no coherent
paraphrase of the poem to indicate that
one can reasonably interpret it as you do.
This 'objection' is entirely fake. I am
putting forward a set of _historical_
claims, and even if your absurd point
about reading poetry had some validity
(which it doesn't) it would still be
completely irrelevant.
That you haven't
made a coherent paraphrase of the poem,
Post by Paul Crowley
and seem unable to,
is strong evidence that your interpretation
is hogwash.
Read that sentence again slowly,
and see if you can work out where
you go wrong.
I don't go wrong.
Post by Paul Crowley
If I say, "Jack jumped over the candlestick," is
about Columbus discovering America because
"candlestick" begins with the same letter as
Columbus's name, it is not enough to make my
reading plausible.
Really?  Such logic.
[garbage deleted}
No, perfect use of the Crowley method to interpret
the secret message of a nursery rhyme deleted
because Crowley can't show where it inaccurately
represents what he does.
Post by Paul Crowley
So it is with your interpretation of Sonnet 18.
Note how your only aim is to avoid
discussing my interpretation of
Sonnet 18
You are insane. I discussed what was wrong with
what you got out of line one, or do you deny even that?

I have constantly pointed out the invalidity of your
method.

Dang, you have me going again. I need to use
my only sane response to this insanity:

Isn't obtuse denial great?
Post by Paul Crowley
The fact that you alone say it isn't and that
neither I nor anyone else can or has presented
an argument against it is irrelevant.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
There's nothing whatever to indicate the speaker
considers the comparison hackneyed
In April 1566, the comparison was
hackneyed. Everyone had made it,
and made it often.
Quote one who did and what he said.
It's in most history books about the
period.
Quote one person of the time who said the
comparison was hackneyed.

Quote one other writer of the time who
compared anyone to a summer's day.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
2.  You are more loving (irony)
Why irony?
Both monarchs made a big deal out
of the extent to which they loved their
people.  It was not a topic that an
intelligent courtier could discuss
without irony,
In the first place, it doesn't say "you are more
loving"; it says, "you are more lovely."
If you had ever studied Sonnet 18 you
would know that 'lovely' could mean
'loving' in Elizabethan English.
You can always find some rare usage for a word,
but in the context of the poem, the word means
"beautiful." Nothing follows it that is about
being loving, only about being lovely and temperate.
And there's no reason whatever for the poet to say "lovely"
if he meant "loving."
Post by Paul Crowley
'Lovely' (OED)
 1602 Narcissus (1893) 129 Wee are . . the kings owne lovely subiects.
Nor is your assertion about an
intelligent courtier anything but a moronic
assertion. An intelligent courtier could absolutely
believe either woman was sincerely doing best
for her subjects
Yeah, yeah. He would understand exactly
why both queens did it, and had to do it.
Henry VIII and previous monarchs never
made much of their 'love' for their subjects
-- since they relied mostly on fear.
and could discuss it without irony, or could not
believe it but discuss it without irony.
And if they were yeomen or Americans
they'd believe irony was something their
wives used to press shirts.
Find one person to agree with you that Americans
are incapable of recognizing irony.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
So far you make sense, if one accepts your
horribly strained puns and references,
That's the point -- and the only point.
It you accept that, you must forget
Stratfordianism.
Wrong.  Your puns aren't there
So says the expert on punning.
So says the "real" expert on punning. Who is
right? No need for a neutral judge, we can
just ask Crowley. He KNOWS.
Post by Paul Crowley
and the connections you make are trivial.  Many
other narratives could be made up if so few
connections are needed.
Strats (and quasi-Strats) have been trying
to create narratives for centuries. But
none have got anywhere.
But, no, I don't have time to make them.
Sure, sure.
That's for wacks. Hal can and has done it.
I think you mean 'Hank'.  
Yes, thank you--Hank.
Post by Paul Crowley
You don't
quote his efforts -- or those of anyone
else -- because they are embarrassingly
bad.  Do you want to see his stuff on
Sonnet 18?
Sure.
Post by Paul Crowley
You accept that my reading makes
sense.  You will not be able to do that
with Hank or anyone else.
I accept that what little of it there is for the first four
lines makes a sort of sense although it is invalid. It has
to do more than make sense.
Post by Paul Crowley
Marlovians have, too.
Not one has made the attempt.
Marlites are usually careful to
avoid the sonnets.
This is not so, but you won't believe me when I tell
you I've read descriptions by Marlovian about what
certain of the sonnets were about. Farey can tell
you about "When in disgrace," for example.
Post by Paul Crowley
I suspect every wack has put together an
interpretation of this sonnet the same way you
have.  Start with the right person writing it at the
right time about the same very general topic,
then find words in it that connect to that topic--
without worrying about making a sensible
coherent narrative of it.
All attempts at decoding a message
are beyond the hopeless when you
don't have the context.   Could the
Pentagon make sense of a coded
German message about U-boats if
they thought it was a Japanese one
about kamikaze pilots?
The wacks all think they have the context. But
you don't need any context, just the words of
the poem.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Paul Crowley
My reading would not, and could not,
make sense if it was based on a fantasy.
If you (or any other Strat) can't come up
with a reading as plausible, relating it to
some other event (say Christ's crucifixion)
then you can no longer in the Stratman.
My reading of it is infinitely more plausible than
yours.
I do NOT deny the shallow theme about
the weather (as I have told you an infinite
number of times).  The poet was exploiting
ambiguity.  But I know that you will never
grasp that concept.
You alternate between agreeing that it's
there and saying it is not. I see nothing
ambiguous in this poem. That you believe
that means I must not be able to grasp
the concept of ambiguity is further evidence
of your extreme irrationality.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Paul Crowley
Ruthven had his way with her only in
the sense of his utter brutality, when
he invaded her privacy, and stabbed
Riccio, while he was trying to hide
behind her.
That made her boobs shake?
Yes. It was an intensely violent scene.
And Mary, as ever, shook with sobs.
Is all this what conventional historians believe?
Post by Paul Crowley
BUT the poet also had in mind the
overnight 30-mile horse-back ride,
often at a gallop, that Mary made from
Edinburgh to Dunbar, on escaping from
Ruthven and his gang a day later.
This is so absurd, Paul. Where are the horses
in the poem? You're just arbitrarily connecting
everything you can to your fixation on Elizabeth
and her times.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
4. Darnley's patience has run out,
shorting the life of his wife's short date,
Riccio.
Summer's (Darnley's) lease (patience) has
all to short a date, you're saying.
See, it's not so hard.  But you can't keep it up..
I can keep it up for the whole Sonnet
and numerous other sonnets.
Do so for this one alone.
I will, in another post.
Good.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
But why is Darnley out of patience concerning
Riccio when in the line just before it is Ruthven
who is having his way with Mary, not Riccio?  You've
lost narrative logic. after not having much of it.
You simply have not read my stuff, and
are ignorant of the history of the times.
It doesn't matter.  I'm only talking about the logic
of the line.  For you, the sonnet says Ruthven is
shaking Mary, and Darnley has lost patience
concerning Riccio.
The line is full of ambiguity (that
concept you find so mysterious) but
the main theme is (a) Darnley shakes
Mary -- in their rough sexual windings;
It can't mean that because the rough winds that
shake Mary equal Ruthven.
Post by Paul Crowley
and (b) later Darnley gets jealous about
her 'short date'.
But that doesn't work with the line:

Summers lease (Darnley's patience) has all too short
a date (has all too Mary's short date).
Post by Paul Crowley
You're just pulling references to what you think
was going on in Britain then, not trying at all to
reveal some kind of narrative.
The poet did not need to tell a story
to Elizabeth.  Everyone in the English
court knew it.  
Why bother with a poem about it, then?
If comparing a person to a summers day is
hackneyed because everyone knows of
the comparison, why is a discussion of
Mary and Elizabeth which everyone has heard
about not hackneyed?
Post by Paul Crowley
If you were to write a
poem about 9/11 would you set out
a narrative?  Isn't it enough to refer to
the dominant images.
I'm not a journalist, so I wouldn't write a poem
about 9/11. What possible ways one could write
a poem is too complex to go into. I will just
say that in my experience of poetry, I've never
come across a poem that does what you say
this one does, nor in my experience as a poet
have I ever thought to compose a poem like it.
It makes no sense. It needs a coherent
narrative or some equivalent thereof, and it doesn't.
'
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Paul Crowley
If you can't see how my explanation
applies to (a) the words of the sonnet
and (b) the history of the time, then my
doing a stupid misleading 'paraphrase'
is not going to help.
The words have to connect to your
explanation; it they do, it should be easy
to show they do--you at least try to show the
connection of "summer" to Darnley.  Why
can't you do this with the poem's other words?
I have done it with the other words.
Not yet. You earlier in this post said you would in
a later post.
Post by Paul Crowley
I connected all the words of the sonnet but "to
time" to my interpretation of it.
Big deal.  I have told you -- often -- that
I don't dispute the banal 'interpretation'.
The poet fully intended that -- for the
fools.
Who make up 99.99% of the people who have
read the poem.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Paul Crowley
It can't be done, unless you get right
the events the poet had in mind, and
tone and manner in which he was
likely to describe them to his beloved.
Yes, but how do you know you're right and
everyone else wrong?
I have stated the tests to be applied.
You don't dispute them.  You don't
consider them.  It's the "I can't be
bothered" line -- the head in the sand
attitude.
I have told you your tests don't apply, and
that even if they did, a neutral judge is
required to determine if your interpretation
meets them.
Post by Paul Crowley
I can't force you to apply the tests,
in much the same way as Galileo
could not force the papal astronomers
to look through his telescope, or
explain how Venus had phases.
So you can ignore them indefinitely.
Indeed, I know full well that you will,
and you must, as will and must almost
all other Strats and quasi-Strats.
You can only keep on asserting that you are
because you say you are.
I have given you the tests.
I can do no more than that.
I wish I could do that.
Today I played tennis, doubles, and I an my
partner won two sets and lost a third.  I wish I
could say we won all three but all my good
shots in one of them were called bad, and my
partner and the other team said we lost it, but
we didn't.  Because I say we didn't.
The test of whether the ball falls inside
or outside the line is objective enough.
So are the tests of whether or not an
explanation matches the words of a
Sonnet and the facts of an historical
episode.
Those tests require someone sane to carry
them out.
Post by Paul Crowley
You accept that my reading makes
sense.  Yet you cannot accept the
simple logic that the author must
have intended that sense.  You
apparently claim that I have some
strange genius -- far superior to any
possessed by any Strat or quasi-
Strat -- in that I can somehow attach
the words of the Sonnet to events
which the author never imagined.
Paul.
Isn't not needing anyone at all to agree with
you to know you're right great!

--Bob
Paul Crowley
2010-04-15 14:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I'm not sure how long I'll waste time on this post,
but I'll answer this. All poems have some
literal meaning.
And this is a Matter of Faith.

1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
2. Thou art more louely and more temperate:
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
4. And Sommers lease hath all too short a date:
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
8. By chance, or natures changing course vntrim'd:
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Yes, but the literal message does not
disappear because you think you can "decode" it/
I have told you again and again that
the obvious simple theme about the
weather remains.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and the evidence solidly against one,
What evidence against which one?
Who wrote the poem. Don't bother refuting
this. We know your answer.
Sorry, I did not realise that I was
impinging on your Matters of Faith.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
as well as our knowledge of creativity and of
Oxford, the first indicating that no other 16-year-
old ever wrote such a fine poem, even
Chatterton,
This really should not be a problem.
There is nothing in the Sonnet that
requires maturity -- and we agree that
the poet was a genius.
Something unprecedented requires better
evidence than you have.
Shake-speare's genius was unprecedented.
That alone is evidence enough.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Of course, only
you believe the poem requires maturity.
Although if it has what you think it does,
it has the most incredible mix of immaturity
and maturity I know of.
State one undeniable item of evidence
that shows the poet was over, say, 21.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
the second concerning Oxford's known poems,
This is more nonsense. The authorship
of 'his known poems' is guesswork. If he
did write any in that 'collection' then he
wrote them when he was even younger.
Isn't unfalsifiability great!
You made the claim.
You can't back it up.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Ignoring implications for poetry for
the moment, I am putting forward an
integrated set of historical propositions.
The only question is "Are they true or
false?" You must maintain that they
are completely false and that the
Sonnet has no more to do with
Elizabeth, Mary QS, Darnley, Riccio
and Ruthven, than it does to the
battle of Marathon, or to Christ's
crucifixion. You must maintain that
EACH of my propositions is utter
nonsense.
You are insane. All I need maintain is that
your interpretation is implausible, as I have,
showing WHY it is implausible.
Where and when did you do this?
Isn't obtuse denial great?
Where and when did you do this?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
If I say, "Jack jumped over the candlestick," is
about Columbus discovering America because
"candlestick" begins with the same letter as
Columbus's name, it is not enough to make my
reading plausible.
Really? Such logic.
[garbage deleted}
No, perfect use of the Crowley method to
interpret the secret message of a nursery rhyme
deleted because Crowley can't show where it
inaccurately represents what he does.
Plain texts don't usually have 'secret'
messages encoded in them. But
sometimes they do. You simply lack
all mental equipment for deciding
between genuine claims (for the
presence of codes) and made-up ones.

If you worked for an intelligence
agency, you'd find that every message
crossing your desk was pure and
simple and contained no secrets.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Note how your only aim is to avoid
discussing my interpretation of
Sonnet 18
You are insane. I discussed what was wrong
with what you got out of line one, or do you deny
even that?
Yes. You cannot even begin to
consider my case. For you there is
no balance, no weighing of arguments
for and against. There is simply one
massive prejudice against.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I have constantly pointed out the invalidity of your
method.
See? For you, there is no possibility
whatever of a hidden or secondary
meaning. The sonnet can only be
about the weather, and nothing else.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
In the first place, it doesn't say "you are more
loving"; it says, "you are more lovely."
If you had ever studied Sonnet 18 you
would know that 'lovely' could mean
'loving' in Elizabethan English.
You can always find some rare usage for a word,
Wrong. In any case, this was far from
rare. It was, in fact, the original sense
of the word; it appears in Shake-speare,
and this sense continued well into the
17th century

'LOVELY' (OED)
1. a. Loving, kind, affectionate. Obs.
c1400 Laud Troy Bk. 565 And welcomed hem with louely chere.
1533–9 T. St. Aubyn in Lisle Papers XIII. 96 (MS.) With much
hearty and lovely recommendations.
1602 Narcissus (1893) 129 Wee are . . . the kings owne lovely
subiects.

b. Amorous. Obs.
1587 M. Grove Pelops & Hipp. (1878) 74 The letter of a friend of
a wounded Louer, . . . to disswade him from this louelie follie.
1592 Lyly Midas iii. iii, Amerula, another tale or none, this is too
louely. Sua. Nay let me heare anie woman tell a tale of x lines long
without it tend to love, and I will [etc.].
1599 Shakes. etc. Pass. Pilgr. iv, Sweet Cytherea . . . Did court
the Lad with many a louely looke.

c. Friendly, amicable. Obs. (? Sc.)
a1649 Drummond of Hawthornden Hist. Scot. (1655) 12
After lovely advice at the Council-Table . . . he was freely dismist.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
but in the context of the poem, the word means
"beautiful."
As you, with your exceedingly simple
mind, must read the poem.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Nothing follows it that is about being loving, only
about being lovely and temperate.
All the rest of the poem that is about
'thou' and 'thee' (from line 9 on) fits
with her being a loving monarch.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And there's no reason whatever for the poet to
say "lovely" if he meant "loving."
God help us. The poet was aiming
at AMBIGUITY. He was ALSO writing
about the weather (or pretending to).
That could be 'lovely', but hardly 'loving'.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Find one person to agree with you that
Americans are incapable of recognizing irony.
You'll soon be telling us that your next
President (Sarah Palin) is both cultured
and sophisticated.

[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
You accept that my reading makes
sense. You will not be able to do that
with Hank or anyone else.
I accept that what little of it there is for the first
four lines makes a sort of sense although it is
invalid. It has to do more than make sense.
It has to (a) relate well to the words of
the Sonnet, and (b) accord with the facts
of history.

Those are the ONLY tests. You have
not (and cannot) contradict either.
Whereas every other attempt to decode
the sonnets is in serious breach of one
or the other, and nearly always both.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Marlites are usually careful to
avoid the sonnets.
This is not so, but you won't believe me when I
tell you I've read descriptions by Marlovian about
what certain of the sonnets were about.
You have seen the rare Marlite (e.g.
Farey) pick a few words from a line
in a sonnet, say how they relate to
their man, and regard that as proof.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Farey can tell you about "When in disgrace," for
example.
Sure -- a few words. But the facts of
history don't support his reading of them.
Marlowe was of low status; he never
had much of a reputation to lose, and
would not waste his breath crying
about any conceivable loss of it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
All attempts at decoding a message
are beyond the hopeless when you
don't have the context. Could the
Pentagon make sense of a coded
German message about U-boats if
they thought it was a Japanese one
about kamikaze pilots?
The wacks all think they have the context. But
you don't need any context, just the words of
the poem.
Eh? This is a new and distinctively
Grummanian doctrine.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
I do NOT deny the shallow theme about
the weather (as I have told you an infinite
number of times). The poet was exploiting
ambiguity. But I know that you will never
grasp that concept.
You alternate between agreeing that it's
there and saying it is not.
Not so. I merely deny your philosophy
of poetry that says (in effect) there can
be only ONE meaning in a poem and
it must be possible set that out in a
simple literal manner.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Ruthven had his way with her only in
the sense of his utter brutality, when
he invaded her privacy, and stabbed
Riccio, while he was trying to hide
behind her.
That made her boobs shake?
Yes. It was an intensely violent scene.
And Mary, as ever, shook with sobs.
Is all this what conventional historians believe?
Yes. There are detailed accounts.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
BUT the poet also had in mind the
overnight 30-mile horse-back ride,
often at a gallop, that Mary made from
Edinburgh to Dunbar, on escaping from
Ruthven and his gang a day later.
This is so absurd, Paul. Where are the horses
in the poem? You're just arbitrarily connecting
everything you can to your fixation on Elizabeth
and her times.
Ridiculous. The murder of Riccio (by
Darnley, Ruthven, and others) took place
in the private dining room of Mary QS,
and her escape and overnight flight from
the gang was only a few hours later.
It was all one brief episode, the story
of which was well-known to the English
court.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
That you believe
that means I must not be able to grasp
the concept of ambiguity is further evidence
of your extreme irrationality.
See (a) above for a classic example of
your inability to grasp the concept
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And there's no reason whatever for the poet to
say "lovely" if he meant "loving."
And see (b) below for another.

Maybe, in some theoretical sense,
you 'know' what ambiguity means.
But every time -- every single time
-- you encounter an example, you
miss it. You misunderstand the
point, and the text. It's like
claiming to know what an elephant
is, but failing to recognise the
animal every time you see one.

Don't worry too much about it.
Huge numbers of Americans (and
academics) have the same blindness.
Do you remember how often I used
to have to quote the Redneck rule
-- "Ambiguity does not exist" ?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
For you, the sonnet says Ruthven is
shaking Mary, and Darnley has lost patience
concerning Riccio.
The line is full of ambiguity (that
concept you find so mysterious) but
the main theme is (a) Darnley shakes
Mary -- in their rough sexual windings;
It can't mean that because the rough winds that
shake Mary equal Ruthven.
The most important sense of the line
IMO is the rough windings of Darnley
and Mary in their sexual embrace.
(Remember that 'wind' in the sense
of air moving -- e.g 'southerly wind'
was pronounced to rhyme with 'mind'
and so was identical (if not with the
same meaning) to the word that forms
the first part of 'winding' -- as in a coiled
spring.)

A secondary (IMHO) sense was the
macaronic pun on "Ruth-ven" where
'Ruth' is rough. and 'ven' is wind.

The use of a word or phrase in two or
more senses employs what is known
as 'ambiguity'. OK, I appreciate that
you have never encountered it before.
Or, if you have, you cannot remember
it, since it is so foreign to your culture.

Unfortunately, this handicap means
that you will never be able to make
sense of Shake-speare, or of much
else in Elizabethan literature.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
and (b) later Darnley gets jealous about
her 'short date'.
Of course it does.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Summers lease (Darnley's patience) has all too short
a date (has all too Mary's short date).
Maybe you are trying to read it in
some very literal manner (what a
surprise that would be!).
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You're just pulling references to what you think
was going on in Britain then, not trying at all to
reveal some kind of narrative.
The poet did not need to tell a story
to Elizabeth. Everyone in the English
court knew it.
Why bother with a poem about it, then?
He was not reporting facts about
events. He was analysing the political
situation, as well as making comments
to amuse.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
If comparing a person to a summers day is
hackneyed because everyone knows of
the comparison?
Where did you THIS from?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
why is a discussion of
Mary and Elizabeth which everyone has heard
about not hackneyed?
The point was that _things_had_
_changed_. Up to this time, Mary QS
had been regarded highly by most
people -- including the English court.
She had been many points ahead of
her English 'sister'. She had left the
management of the country to her
ministers, and had done her duty by
giving birth to an heir. Now all that
was changing, and the poet could see
that Mary was on a downhill course.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
If you were to write a
poem about 9/11 would you set out
a narrative? Isn't it enough to refer to
the dominant images.
I'm not a journalist, so I wouldn't write a poem
about 9/11.
A better analogy here might be a poem
about Tiger Woods -- giving a wide
range for jokes and puns on golf.
Although (unlike the Mary QS case)
Tiger has no political influence, and
what happens to him is unlikely to
determine the fate of nations.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
What possible ways one could write
a poem is too complex to go into. I will just
say that in my experience of poetry, I've never
come across a poem that does what you say
this one does, nor in my experience as a poet
have I ever thought to compose a poem like it.
That does not matter. The issue is
whether or not it IS a poem -- as I
have outlined it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
It makes no sense.
You need to show HOW it does not
make sense.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
It needs a coherent narrative or some
equivalent thereof, and it doesn't.
This is just your own silly doctrine.

[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
The test of whether the ball falls inside
or outside the line is objective enough.
So are the tests of whether or not an
explanation matches the words of a
Sonnet and the facts of an historical
episode.
Those tests require someone sane to carry
them out.
It would be VERY EASY to show
the mismatch (a) between my reading
and the words of the Sonnet, and
(b) between my reading and the facts
of the history -- IF there was any such
mismatch.

You haven't. Neither has any Strat or
quasi-Strat.


Paul.
Peter Farey
2010-04-15 15:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
You have seen the rare Marlite (e.g.
Farey) pick a few words from a line
in a sonnet, say how they relate to
their man, and regard that as proof.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Farey can tell you about "When in disgrace," for
example.
Sure -- a few words. But the facts of
history don't support his reading of them.
Marlowe was of low status; he never
had much of a reputation to lose, and
would not waste his breath crying
about any conceivable loss of it.
Every so often I notice something so obscenely wrong
by Paul that I just can't help responding. Christopher
Marlowe was quite clearly believed to be the greatest
dramatist of his day, with a reputation second to none.

As for the Sonnets, and as I have repeated here time
and time again:

One has only to take as a starting point that he usually
means what he actually says, rather than what he must
have meant if he was who most people think he is. For
example, take "a wretch's knife" to mean a wretch's knife,
rather than assume that he must have really meant Old
Father Time's scythe; take an "outcast state" to mean an
outcast state, not just a feeling that nobody likes him;
and accept that when he says his "name receives a brand"
it means that his reputation has been permanently damaged,
and not simply that acting is considered a somewhat
disreputable profession.

In Sonnet 25, for example, we find that something unex-
pected ("unlooked for") has happened to the poet, which
will deny him the chance to boast of "public honour and
proud titles", and which seems to have led to some en-
forced travel far away, possibly even overseas (26-28,
34, 50-51, 61). We get confirmation that this going away
was probably a one-off event (48), and whatever it was,
it is clearly also associated with his being "in disgrace
with fortune and men's eyes", that "outcast state" (29),
his "blots" and "bewailed guilt" (36).

What he most enjoyed about his past life seems, according
to him, to have been the reason for his downfall -
"Consumed by that which it was nourished by" (73) or Quod
me nutrit me destruit, as Marlowe's putative portrait at
Corpus Christi, Cambridge, puts it. In fact he thinks
that, just like Marlowe, he will be remembered as having
died a cowardly death, knifed by some base 'wretch' (74).

There is some concern that the identities of either the
poet or the addressee might be discovered (76), but
presumably not by the latter's friends and descendants,
for whom his name at least will have 'immortal life'
because of these Sonnets (81). However, even though the
poet says that the poems will last for all time, he knows
that for some reason he will not be remembered as the
author of them (81).

In Sonnet 110, we finally discover just what apparently
caused the disgrace and "outcast state" mentioned earlier,
what the "vulgar scandal" (112) is, and how it is that
his "name receives a brand" (111). Not only has he "looked
on" spiritual truth "askance and strangely", but publicly
expressed these views in a way that defiled and cheapened
them. He now regrets this, and blames having to get his
living from the public for these "public manners". There
is also a possible reference ("ore-greene my bad") to an
attack on him by Robert Greene for those views (112).

For him, there is no God but his friend, and no Heaven to
be found but in his bosom (110). Christian ritual is of no
importance to him; nor are any actions based upon the
assumption of an after-life, in which he apparently doesn't
believe (125).

Paul says
Post by Paul Crowley
You have seen the rare Marlite (e.g.
Farey) pick a few words from a line
in a sonnet, say how they relate to
their man, and regard that as proof.
No Paul, my argument relates to far more than just a few lines
(and were you at all interested in an honest discussion you
would acknowledge this) and I regard none of this as "proof".
I merely point out how infinitely more relevant to the theory
proposed by Marlovians the Sonnets are to that of any other
authorship candidate.

And that is all I have to say on the subject.


Peter F.
<***@rey.prestel.co.uk>
<http://www2.prestel.co.uk/rey/index.htm>
lackpurity
2010-04-15 23:32:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Farey
Post by Paul Crowley
You have seen the rare Marlite (e.g.
Farey) pick a few words from a line
in a sonnet, say how they relate to
their man, and regard that as proof.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Farey can tell you about "When in disgrace," for
example.
Sure -- a few words. But the facts of
history don't support his reading of them.
Marlowe was of low status; he never
had much of a reputation to lose, and
would not waste his breath crying
about any conceivable loss of it.
Every so often I notice something so obscenely wrong
by Paul that I just can't help responding. Christopher
Marlowe was quite clearly believed to be the greatest
dramatist of his day, with a reputation second to none.
As for the Sonnets, and as I have repeated here time
� �One has only to take as a starting point that he usually
� �means what he actually says, rather than what he must
� �have meant if he was who most people think he is. For
� �example, take "a wretch's knife" to mean a wretch's knife,
� �rather than assume that he must have really meant Old
� �Father Time's scythe; take an "outcast state" to mean an
� �outcast state, not just a feeling that nobody likes him;
� �and accept that when he says his "name receives a brand"
� �it means that his reputation has been permanently damaged,
� �and not simply that acting is considered a somewhat
� �disreputable profession.
� �In Sonnet 25, for example, we find that something unex-
� �pected ("unlooked for") has happened to the poet, which
� �will deny him the chance to boast of "public honour and
� �proud titles", and which seems to have led to some en-
� �forced travel far away, possibly even overseas (26-28,
� �34, 50-51, 61). We get confirmation that this going away
� �was probably a one-off event (48), and whatever it was,
� �it is clearly also associated with his being "in disgrace
� �with fortune and men's eyes", that "outcast state" (29),
� �his "blots" and "bewailed guilt" (36).
� �What he most enjoyed about his past life seems, according
� �to him, to have been the reason for his downfall -
� �"Consumed by that which it was nourished by" (73) or Quod
� �me nutrit me destruit, as Marlowe's putative portrait at
� �Corpus Christi, Cambridge, puts it. In fact he thinks
� �that, just like Marlowe, he will be remembered as having
� �died a cowardly death, knifed by some base 'wretch' (74).
He merged into the Holy Spirit, from which he came.
Post by Peter Farey
� �There is some concern that the identities of either the
� �poet or the addressee might be discovered (76), but
� �presumably not by the latter's friends and descendants,
� �for whom his name at least will have 'immortal life'
� �because of these Sonnets (81). However, even though the
� �poet says that the poems will last for all time, he knows
� �that for some reason he will not be remembered as the
� �author of them (81).
� �In Sonnet 110, we finally discover just what apparently
� �caused the disgrace and "outcast state" mentioned earlier,
� �what the "vulgar scandal" (112) is, and how it is that
� �his "name receives a brand" (111). Not only has he "looked
� �on" spiritual truth "askance and strangely", but publicly
� �expressed these views in a way that defiled and cheapened
� �them. He now regrets this, and blames having to get his
� �living from the public for these "public manners". There
� �is also a possible reference ("ore-greene my bad") to an
� �attack on him by Robert Greene for those views (112).
� �For him, there is no God but his friend, and no Heaven to
� �be found but in his bosom (110). Christian ritual is of no
� �importance to him; nor are any actions based upon the
� �assumption of an after-life, in which he apparently doesn't
� �believe (125).
He was "the darling of the muses." He was laying up treasure in
heaven. He mentioned three heavens, at least. Obviously, he did
believe in an afterlife.
Post by Peter Farey
Paul says
Post by Paul Crowley
You have seen the rare Marlite (e.g.
Farey) pick a few words from a line
in a sonnet, say how they relate to
their man, and regard that as proof.
No Paul, my argument relates to far more than just a few lines
(and were you at all interested in an honest discussion you
would acknowledge this) and I regard none of this as "proof".
I merely point out how infinitely more relevant to the theory
proposed by Marlovians the Sonnets are to that of any other
authorship candidate.
And that is all I have to say on the subject.
Peter F.
<http://www2.prestel.co.uk/rey/index.htm>
Michael Martin
Tom Reedy
2010-04-16 02:34:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Farey
Post by Paul Crowley
You have seen the rare Marlite (e.g.
Farey) pick a few words from a line
in a sonnet, say how they relate to
their man, and regard that as proof.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Farey can tell you about "When in disgrace," for
example.
Sure -- a few words. But the facts of
history don't support his reading of them.
Marlowe was of low status; he never
had much of a reputation to lose, and
would not waste his breath crying
about any conceivable loss of it.
Every so often I notice something so obscenely wrong
by Paul that I just can't help responding. Christopher
Marlowe was quite clearly believed to be the greatest
dramatist of his day, with a reputation second to none.
Every so often I notice something so wrong (but not obscenely) by
Peter that I just can't help responding.
Post by Peter Farey
As for the Sonnets, and as I have repeated here time
   One has only to take as a starting point that he usually
   means what he actually says, rather than what he must
   have meant if he was who most people think he is.
136

If thy soule check thee that I come so neere,
Sweare to thy blind soule that I was thy Will,
And will thy soule knowes is admitted there,
Thus farre for loue, my loue-sute sweet fullfill.
Will, will fulfill the treasure of thy loue,
I fill it full with wils,and my will one,
In things of great receit with ease we prooue.
Among a number one is reckon'd none.
Then in the number let me passe vntold,
Though in thy stores account I one must be,
For nothing hold me,so it please thee hold,
That nothing me,a some-thing sweet to thee.
Make but my name thy loue,and loue that still,
And then thou louest me for my name is Will.

TR
Post by Peter Farey
For
   example, take "a wretch's knife" to mean a wretch's knife,
   rather than assume that he must have really meant Old
   Father Time's scythe; take an "outcast state" to mean an
   outcast state, not just a feeling that nobody likes him;
   and accept that when he says his "name receives a brand"
   it means that his reputation has been permanently damaged,
   and not simply that acting is considered a somewhat
   disreputable profession.
   In Sonnet 25, for example, we find that something unex-
   pected ("unlooked for") has happened to the poet, which
   will deny him the chance to boast of "public honour and
   proud titles", and which seems to have led to some en-
   forced travel far away, possibly even overseas (26-28,
   34, 50-51, 61). We get confirmation that this going away
   was probably a one-off event (48), and whatever it was,
   it is clearly also associated with his being "in disgrace
   with fortune and men's eyes", that "outcast state" (29),
   his "blots" and "bewailed guilt" (36).
   What he most enjoyed about his past life seems, according
   to him, to have been the reason for his downfall -
   "Consumed by that which it was nourished by" (73) or Quod
   me nutrit me destruit, as Marlowe's putative portrait at
   Corpus Christi, Cambridge, puts it. In fact he thinks
   that, just like Marlowe, he will be remembered as having
   died a cowardly death, knifed by some base 'wretch' (74).
   There is some concern that the identities of either the
   poet or the addressee might be discovered (76), but
   presumably not by the latter's friends and descendants,
   for whom his name at least will have 'immortal life'
   because of these Sonnets (81). However, even though the
   poet says that the poems will last for all time, he knows
   that for some reason he will not be remembered as the
   author of them (81).
   In Sonnet 110, we finally discover just what apparently
   caused the disgrace and "outcast state" mentioned earlier,
   what the "vulgar scandal" (112) is, and how it is that
   his "name receives a brand" (111). Not only has he "looked
   on" spiritual truth "askance and strangely", but publicly
   expressed these views in a way that defiled and cheapened
   them. He now regrets this, and blames having to get his
   living from the public for these "public manners". There
   is also a possible reference ("ore-greene my bad") to an
   attack on him by Robert Greene for those views (112).
   For him, there is no God but his friend, and no Heaven to
   be found but in his bosom (110). Christian ritual is of no
   importance to him; nor are any actions based upon the
   assumption of an after-life, in which he apparently doesn't
   believe (125).
Paul says
Post by Paul Crowley
You have seen the rare Marlite (e.g.
Farey) pick a few words from a line
in a sonnet, say how they relate to
their man, and regard that as proof.
No Paul, my argument relates to far more than just a few lines
(and were you at all interested in an honest discussion you
would acknowledge this) and I regard none of this as "proof".
I merely point out how infinitely more relevant to the theory
proposed by Marlovians the Sonnets are to that of any other
authorship candidate.
And that is all I have to say on the subject.
Peter F.
<http://www2.prestel.co.uk/rey/index.htm>
Peter Farey
2010-04-16 13:49:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Reedy
Post by Peter Farey
Post by Paul Crowley
You have seen the rare Marlite (e.g.
Farey) pick a few words from a line
in a sonnet, say how they relate to
their man, and regard that as proof.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Farey can tell you about "When in disgrace," for
example.
Sure -- a few words. But the facts of
history don't support his reading of them.
Marlowe was of low status; he never
had much of a reputation to lose, and
would not waste his breath crying
about any conceivable loss of it.
Every so often I notice something so obscenely wrong
by Paul that I just can't help responding. Christopher
Marlowe was quite clearly believed to be the greatest
dramatist of his day, with a reputation second to none.
Every so often I notice something so wrong (but not
obscenely) by Peter that I just can't help responding.
Tom, I let your sneaking back a month ago stay unnoticed
since it just shared information, but you must understand
that anything confrontational like this is precisely what
you must avoid if you are to succeed in finally breaking
the HLAS habit. You were doing so well by taking it one
day at a time. What is it, 18 months? Don't spoil it now!
Post by Tom Reedy
Post by Peter Farey
As for the Sonnets, and as I have repeated here time
One has only to take as a starting point that he usually
means what he actually says, rather than what he must
have meant if he was who most people think he is.
136
If thy soule check thee that I come so neere,
Sweare to thy blind soule that I was thy Will,
And will thy soule knowes is admitted there,
Thus farre for loue, my loue-sute sweet fullfill.
Will, will fulfill the treasure of thy loue,
I fill it full with wils,and my will one,
In things of great receit with ease we prooue.
Among a number one is reckon'd none.
Then in the number let me passe vntold,
Though in thy stores account I one must be,
For nothing hold me,so it please thee hold,
That nothing me,a some-thing sweet to thee.
Make but my name thy loue,and loue that still,
And then thou louest me for my name is Will.
As I said in my "Hoffman and the Authorship":

Thorpe does nevertheless seem to be saying that the one
and only author of the Sonnets is "Mr W.H.", but this is
of course not the problem for Marlovians that it would
be for others. As Foster puts it "One hypothesis, which
I leave for others to expound, is that Shakespeare was
not the author of Shake-speare's Sonnets." If Marlowe
had indeed survived and was now living under an assum-
ed identity, then there is no reason at all why his name
could not have had the initials "W.H.", even with the
first name 'Will'.

It is also my claim that his plays were being presented
under the name "William Shakespeare", that Marlowe
may well have used the *nom de guerre* William Hall,
and that he could also have served Anthony Bacon using
the name William.

If the fair youth with whom his addressee is accused
of having an affair was William Herbert, then the poet
might well be justified in writing:

Who euer hath her wish, thou hast thy Will,
And Will too boote, and Will in ouer-plus,

don't you think?


Peter F.
<***@rey.prestel.co.uk>
<http://www2.prestel.co.uk/rey/index.htm>
Paul Crowley
2010-04-16 09:24:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Farey
Post by Paul Crowley
Sure -- a few words. But the facts of
history don't support his reading of them.
Marlowe was of low status; he never
had much of a reputation to lose, and
would not waste his breath crying
about any conceivable loss of it.
Every so often I notice something so obscenely
wrong by Paul that I just can't help responding.
Christopher Marlowe was quite clearly believed to
be the greatest dramatist of his day, with a
reputation second to none.
Standard doctrine (which Marlites
usually follow rigorously) states
that dramatists of the time had
NO reputations --- good, bad or
indifferent.

In this instance standard doctrine has
something going for it. Most plays
were published anonymously -- even
(one might say 'especially') those by
the greatest of the day: Marlowe and
Shake-speare. Shake-speare's name
was not attached to any plays before
1598, and after that several quartos
of his plays were printed with no
author mentioned.

1599, Romeo and Iuliet (2nd),
1600, Henry V
1600, Henry VI, part 3 (2nd?) . . .
1605 Hamlet (2nd),
1609, Romeo & Juliet (3rd),
1611 Titus Andronicus

Secondly, the name 'Marlowe' (in any
form) does not appear in the record
in connection with ANY literary
activity (i.e. poems or plays) before
his death.

Marlowe's name was not attached
to Tamburlaine until a couple of
centuries after his death. Faustus
was not published until 1604, leaving
Edward II, and Dido, Queen of
Carthage (both published in 1594)
as the only plays which Londoners
who knew him might associate with
his memory.
Post by Peter Farey
As for the Sonnets, and as I have repeated
I will probably come back to this later


Paul.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-16 20:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Peter Farey
Post by Paul Crowley
Sure -- a few words. But the facts of
history don't support his reading of them.
Marlowe was of low status; he never
had much of a reputation to lose, and
would not waste his breath crying
about any conceivable loss of it.
Every so often I notice something so obscenely
wrong by Paul that I just can't help responding.
Christopher Marlowe was quite clearly believed to
be the greatest dramatist of his day, with a
reputation second to none.
Standard doctrine (which Marlites
usually follow rigorously) states
that dramatists of the time had
NO reputations --- good, bad or
indifferent.
In this instance standard doctrine has
something going for it.  Most plays
were published anonymously -- even
(one might say 'especially') those by
the greatest of the day:  Marlowe and
Shake-speare.  Shake-speare's name
was not attached to any plays before
1598, and after that several quartos
of his plays were printed with no
author mentioned.
1599, Romeo and Iuliet (2nd),
1600,  Henry V
1600,  Henry VI, part 3 (2nd?)  . . .
1605  Hamlet (2nd),
1609, Romeo & Juliet (3rd),
1611  Titus Andronicus
Secondly, the name 'Marlowe' (in any
form) does not appear in the record
in connection with ANY literary
activity (i.e. poems or plays) before
his death.
Marlowe's name was not attached
to Tamburlaine until a couple of
centuries after his death.  Faustus
was not published until 1604, leaving
Edward II, and Dido, Queen of
Carthage (both published in 1594)
as the only plays which Londoners
who knew him might associate with
his memory.
Paul.
Peter, I hope you will answer this in detail. I will just
say that the remarks made about Marlowe shortly
after his death, indicate he was extremely esteemed by
his peers. Not that it matters. Everyone has a reputation,
and most people worry about theirs, and few never think
their reputation has suffered in any way. I believe even I
lost control and severely damaged my reputation as
totally lovable when I called Justice Stevens a Very Bad
Name instead of merely averring that he was an imbecile.

--Bob G.
Peter Farey
2010-04-17 15:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Peter Farey
Every so often I notice something so obscenely
wrong by Paul that I just can't help responding.
Christopher Marlowe was quite clearly believed to
be the greatest dramatist of his day, with a
reputation second to none.
Standard doctrine (which Marlites
usually follow rigorously) states
that dramatists of the time had
NO reputations --- good, bad or
indifferent.
<blah blah blah>
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Peter, I hope you will answer this in detail.
No way Bob. Life's too short to spend any more than the odd
minute or two every so often on dealing with Paul's rubbish.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I will just say that the remarks made about Marlowe shortly
after his death, indicate he was extremely esteemed by
his peers. Not that it matters. Everyone has a reputation,
and most people worry about theirs, and few never think
their reputation has suffered in any way.
Indeed, but what Paul is assuming is that when Robert Greene
addressed the first part of his "Groatsworth" letter to some-
one he called "famous gracer of tragedians" everyone would
have simply scratched their heads wondering who on earth he
could possibly be talking about. "Famous", right?

<snip>


Peter F.
<***@rey.prestel.co.uk>
<http://www2.prestel.co.uk/rey/index.htm>
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-17 18:27:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Farey
Post by Paul Crowley
Standard doctrine (which Marlites
usually follow rigorously) states
that dramatists of the time had
NO reputations --- good, bad or
indifferent.
<blah blah blah>
Peter, I hope you will answer this in detail.  
No way Bob. Life's too short to spend any more than the odd
minute or two every so often on dealing with Paul's rubbish.
Not to answer Paul, but to summarize for everyone
the favorable remarks made about Marlowe and
his works up to 1595 or so. Or perhpas you know
of a reference that lists the mentions of Marlowe
in the convenient manner that some list the
mentions of Shakespeare?

--Bob
Peter Farey
2010-04-19 15:37:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Peter Farey
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Standard doctrine (which Marlites
usually follow rigorously) states
that dramatists of the time had
NO reputations --- good, bad or
indifferent.
Peter, I hope you will answer this in detail.
No way Bob. Life's too short to spend any more than the odd
minute or two every so often on dealing with Paul's rubbish.
Not to answer Paul, but to summarize for everyone
the favorable remarks made about Marlowe and
his works up to 1595 or so. Or perhaps you know
of a reference that lists the mentions of Marlowe
in the convenient manner that some list the
mentions of Shakespeare?
OK, just for you Bob.

1595 is a bit difficult, but if you will allow me up to the end
of that decade (i.e. as much as Shakespeare needed for his
first mention) there were a few who were prepared to brave
the wrath of the Puritans to say how good (and famous) a
poet, or nice guy, he was.

Thou famous gracer of Tragedians
(Robert Greene, 1592)

Unhappy in thine end,
Marley, the Muses Darling, for thy verse
Fit to write passions for the souls below.
(George Peele, 1593)

Neat Marlowe, bathed in the Thespian springs,
Had in him those brave translunary things
That the first poets had; his raptures were
All ayre and fire, which made his verses cleere;
For that fine madness still he did retaine,
Which rightly should possesse a poet's braine.
(Michael Drayton, 1597)

Marlo admir'd, whose honey-flowing vaine
No English writer can as yet attaine;
Whose name in Fame's immortall treasurie
Truth shall record to endless memorie ...
Live still in heaven thy soule, thy fame on earth!
Thou dead, of Marlos Hero findes a dearth.
(Henry Petowe, 1598)

... the impression of the man, that hath beene deare
unto us, living an after life in our memory.
(Edward Blount, 1598)

Let me see, hath any bodie in Yarmouth heard of
Leander and Hero, of whome divine *Musaeus* sung,
and a diviner Muse than him, Kit Marlowe?
(Thomas Nashe, 1599)

...in the memory of that pure elementall wit,
Chr. Marlow.
(Thomas Thorpe, 1600)

Kinde Kit Marlowe
(John Marston, 1600)


Peter F.
<***@rey.prestel.co.uk>
<http://www2.prestel.co.uk/rey/index.htm>
Paul Crowley
2010-04-19 19:46:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Farey
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Not to answer Paul, but to summarize for everyone
the favorable remarks made about Marlowe and
his works up to 1595 or so. Or perhaps you know
of a reference that lists the mentions of Marlowe
in the convenient manner that some list the
mentions of Shakespeare?
OK, just for you Bob.
1595 is a bit difficult, but if you will allow me up to
the end of that decade (i.e. as much as
Shakespeare needed for his first mention) there
were a few who were prepared to brave the wrath
of the Puritans to say how good (and famous) a
poet, or nice guy, he was.
Thou famous gracer of Tragedians
(Robert Greene, 1592)
Nonsensical, of course.
Post by Peter Farey
Unhappy in thine end,
Marley, the Muses Darling, for thy verse
Fit to write passions for the souls below.
(George Peele, 1593)
This, and the other commendations of
Marlowe, are of exactly the same nature
as those that praise Shake-speare, from
almost as soon as his name became
public. They do NOT mean that any
author of such words had actually met
the man, or knew anything about him
other than what he could derive from the
published works. They have about as
much evidential value as the praises
heaped upon the New York painter, Nat
Tate, or on the French philosopher, Botul.


Paul.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-20 02:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Peter Farey
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Not to answer Paul, but to summarize for everyone
the favorable remarks made about Marlowe and
his works up to 1595 or so.  Or perhaps you know
of a reference that lists the mentions of Marlowe
in the convenient manner that some list the
mentions of Shakespeare?
OK, just for you Bob.
1595 is a bit difficult, but if you will allow me up to
the end of that decade (i.e. as much as
Shakespeare needed for his first mention) there
were a few who were prepared to brave the wrath
of the Puritans to say how good (and famous) a
poet, or nice guy, he was.
Thou famous gracer of Tragedians
(Robert Greene, 1592)
Nonsensical, of course.
Post by Peter Farey
Unhappy in thine end,
Marley, the Muses Darling, for thy verse
Fit to write passions for the souls below.
(George Peele, 1593)
This, and the other commendations of
Marlowe, are of exactly the same nature
as those that praise Shake-speare, from
almost as soon as his name became
public.  They do NOT mean that any
author of such words had actually met
the man, or knew anything about him
other than what he could derive from the
published works.  They have about as
much evidential value as the praises
heaped upon the New York painter, Nat
Tate, or on the French philosopher, Botul.
Paul, you said he had no reputation as a writer.
These quotations show very convincingly that
he had. No matter what you think of them.

Thank you, Peter, for supplying. I did know them all, but
would have have a lot of trouble finding them.

--Bob
Paul Crowley
2010-04-20 16:05:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Peter Farey
Unhappy in thine end,
Marley, the Muses Darling, for thy verse
Fit to write passions for the souls below.
(George Peele, 1593)
This, and the other commendations of
Marlowe, are of exactly the same nature
as those that praise Shake-speare, from
almost as soon as his name became
public. They do NOT mean that any
author of such words had actually met
the man, or knew anything about him
other than what he could derive from the
published works. They have about as
much evidential value as the praises
heaped upon the New York painter, Nat
Tate, or on the French philosopher, Botul.
Paul, you said he had no reputation as a writer.
Get the context right. You 'quoted' Peter
about Sonnet 29 ' . . Farey can tell you about
"When in disgrace," for example. . .'

When in disgrace with Fortune and mens eyes, 29:01
I all alone beweepe my out-cast state, 29:02
And trouble deafe heauen with my bootlesse cries, 29:03
And looke vpon my selfe and curse my fate. 29:04

I said that he had no reputation to lose
-- when he is supposed to have lost it
shortly before his death (or as Farey
would say, his 'death').
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
These quotations show very convincingly that
he had. No matter what you think of them.
Sure, once he was published, with his
name attached to major works, the literati
praised him -- as a writer -- to the skies.
But that was all posthumous. Before he
was published, he had no reputation.

Tell us how a writer acquires a reputation,
and becomes famous, without being
published.


Paul.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-20 19:26:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Peter Farey
Unhappy in thine end,
Marley, the Muses Darling, for thy verse
Fit to write passions for the souls below.
(George Peele, 1593)
This, and the other commendations of
Marlowe, are of exactly the same nature
as those that praise Shake-speare, from
almost as soon as his name became
public.  They do NOT mean that any
author of such words had actually met
the man, or knew anything about him
other than what he could derive from the
published works.  They have about as
much evidential value as the praises
heaped upon the New York painter, Nat
Tate, or on the French philosopher, Botul.
Paul, you said he had no reputation as a writer.
Get the context right.  You 'quoted' Peter
about Sonnet 29 ' . . Farey can tell you about
"When in disgrace," for example. . .'
When in disgrace with Fortune and mens eyes,  29:01
I all alone beweepe my out-cast state,  29:02
And trouble deafe heauen with my bootlesse cries,  29:03
And looke vpon my selfe and curse my fate.  29:04
I said that he had no reputation to lose
-- when he is supposed to have lost it
shortly before his death (or as Farey
would say, his 'death').
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
These quotations show very convincingly that
he had.  No matter what you think of them.
Sure, once he was published, with his
name attached to major works, the literati
praised him -- as a writer -- to the skies.
But that was all posthumous.  Before he
was published, he had no reputation.
Tell us how a writer acquires a reputation,
and becomes famous, without being
published.
Paul.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
He obviously had a very high reputation as a poet
among his fellow writers--as evinced by the fact
that after his death they quickly praised him in
print. Several before his name appeared on
any title-pages, I believe. And the author
of Greenes Groatsworth of Wit praised him
as a writer of tragedies before he died. He had
a reputation. (Word-of-mouth. Ever hear of
that, Paul?)

--Bob
Paul Crowley
2010-04-21 00:37:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
I said that he had no reputation to lose
-- when he is supposed to have lost it
shortly before his death (or as Farey
would say, his 'death').
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
These quotations show very convincingly that
he had. No matter what you think of them.
Sure, once he was published, with his
name attached to major works, the literati
praised him -- as a writer -- to the skies.
But that was all posthumous. Before he
was published, he had no reputation.
Tell us how a writer acquires a reputation,
and becomes famous, without being
published.
He obviously had a very high reputation as a poet
among his fellow writers--as evinced by the fact
that after his death they quickly praised him in
print.
No. They only praised him AFTER
his name had appeared attached to
printed works -- published (like all
his work) posthumously.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Several before his name appeared on
any title-pages, I believe.
Your belief is false.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And the author
of Greenes Groatsworth of Wit praised him
as a writer of tragedies before he died.
No. That author addressed a
"famous gracer of tragedians".
If you think he meant Marlowe,
you have to explain
(a) how he became 'famous', and
(b) why he should have such a
strange appellation, when he was
a tragedian himself.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
He had a reputation. (Word-of-mouth.
Ever hear of that, Paul?)
The issue is how he supposedly
became famous. Word of mouth
among writers doesn't usually do
that.


Paul.
Paul Crowley
2010-04-19 19:45:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Farey
Indeed, but what Paul is assuming is that when
Robert Greene addressed the first part of his
"Groatsworth" letter to some-
one he called "famous gracer of tragedians"
The notion that a playwright should be
called a "famous gracer of tragedians"
makes no sense. 'Tragedians' are those
who write tragedies. A good actor might
be said to grace their works -- but not
another playwright. The second objection
to this being Marlowe is, of course, the
'famous'. No sensible person can claim
that Marlowe was famous in 1592. How
could he have been? Nothing had been
published over his name.

However, Greene does address someone
who writes plays. This must have been
someone who was also a well-known actor.
Candidates are Edward Alleyn and Robert
Armin.


Paul.
Peter Groves
2010-04-20 05:40:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Peter Farey
Indeed, but what Paul is assuming is that when
Robert Greene addressed the first part of his
"Groatsworth" letter to some-
one he called "famous gracer of tragedians"
The notion that a playwright should be
called  a "famous gracer of tragedians"
makes no sense.  'Tragedians' are those
who write tragedies.  A good actor might
be said to grace their works -- but not
another playwright.  
Tragedian, OED: 2. A stage-player who performs in tragedy; a tragic
actor. 1592 NASHE P. Penilesse (ed. 2) 26b, The Tragedian that
represents his person. 1602 SHAKES. Ham. II. ii. 342 What Players are
they? Rosin... The Tragedians of the City. 1602 MARSTON Antonio's Rev.
II. iii, I will not swell, like a Tragedian, in forced passion of
affected straines.

Peter G.
Post by Paul Crowley
The second objection
to this being Marlowe is, of course, the
'famous'.  No sensible person can claim
that Marlowe was famous in 1592.  How
could he have been?  Nothing had been
published over his name.
However, Greene does address someone
who writes plays.  This must have been
someone who was also a well-known actor.
Candidates are Edward Alleyn and Robert
Armin.
Paul.
Paul Crowley
2010-04-20 16:06:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Groves
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Peter Farey
Indeed, but what Paul is assuming is that when
Robert Greene addressed the first part of his
"Groatsworth" letter to some-
one he called "famous gracer of tragedians"
The notion that a playwright should be
called a "famous gracer of tragedians"
makes no sense. 'Tragedians' are those
who write tragedies. A good actor might
be said to grace their works -- but not
another playwright.
Tragedian, OED: 2. A stage-player who performs
in tragedy; a tragic actor. 1592 NASHE P.
Penilesse (ed. 2) 26b, The Tragedian that
represents his person. 1602 SHAKES. Ham. II. ii.
342 What Players are they? Rosin... The
Tragedians of the City. 1602 MARSTON Antonio's
Rev. II. iii, I will not swell, like a Tragedian, in
forced passion of affected straines.
Yes, I should have checked the dictionary
and also remembered Hamlet. The OED's
first definition is along the lines I was
expecting:

1. A dramatist who composes a tragedy or tragedies; a tragic poet or author.
c1374 Chaucer Boeth. iii. pr. vi. 60 (Camb. MS.) A tragedyen [v.r.
tregedien] þat is to seyn a makere of ditees þat hyhten tragedies.
a1631 Donne Poems (1633) 165 Under this curled marble . . . Sleepe rare
Tragedian Shakespeare, sleepe alone.
1671 Milton P.R. iv. 261 What the lofty grave Tragœdians taught In
Chorus or Iambic.
1875 Scrivener Lect. Text N. Test. 6 The dramas of the Greek tragedian
Æschylus.

The issue is still what is the most likely
subject of 'famous gracer of tragedians'.
A group of actors might be graced by
their barber, or their costumier, but hardly
by a playwright. And it would be distinctly
odd for a playwright of tragedies not to be
called 'a tragedian' himself, but a 'gracer
of tragedians'


Paul.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-20 19:32:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Peter Groves
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Peter Farey
Indeed, but what Paul is assuming is that when
Robert Greene addressed the first part of his
"Groatsworth" letter to some-
one he called "famous gracer of tragedians"
The notion that a playwright should be
called a "famous gracer of tragedians"
makes no sense. 'Tragedians' are those
who write tragedies. A good actor might
be said to grace their works -- but not
another playwright.
Tragedian, OED: 2. A stage-player who performs
in tragedy; a tragic actor. 1592 NASHE P.
Penilesse (ed. 2) 26b, The Tragedian that
represents his person. 1602 SHAKES. Ham. II. ii.
342 What Players are they? Rosin... The
Tragedians of the City. 1602 MARSTON Antonio's
Rev. II. iii, I will not swell, like a Tragedian, in
forced passion of affected straines.
Yes, I should have checked the dictionary
and also remembered Hamlet. The OED's
first definition is along the lines I was
1. A dramatist who composes a tragedy or tragedies; a tragic poet or author.
c1374 Chaucer Boeth. iii. pr. vi. 60 (Camb. MS.) A tragedyen [v.r.
tregedien] at is to seyn a makere of ditees at hyhten tragedies.
a1631 Donne Poems (1633) 165 Under this curled marble . . . Sleepe rare
Tragedian Shakespeare, sleepe alone.
1671 Milton P.R. iv. 261 What the lofty grave Trag dians taught In
Chorus or Iambic.
1875 Scrivener Lect. Text N. Test. 6 The dramas of the Greek tragedian
schylus.
The issue is still what is the most likely
subject of 'famous gracer of tragedians'.
A group of actors might be graced by
their barber, or their costumier, but hardly
by a playwright.
Oh, certainly not. Giving an actor excellent
lines that make him sound good would not
be gracing him.

And, as you say, how could he be famous?
No one would think to ask, after seeing a terrific play,
like Tamburlaine, which was very popular in its time,
who its author was.

Paul, once again you prove yourself an invincible idiot.

--Bob
Paul Crowley
2010-04-21 00:36:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
The issue is still what is the most likely
subject of 'famous gracer of tragedians'.
A group of actors might be graced by
their barber, or their costumier, but hardly
by a playwright.
Oh, certainly not. Giving an actor excellent
lines that make him sound good would not
be gracing him.
Certainly not. If your argument was
good, playwrights (and scriptwriters)
should be doing much the same for
actors today. But you won't find any
comparable phrase. You won't find
any writer being described in roughly
comparable terms.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And, as you say, how could he be famous?
No one would think to ask, after seeing a terrific play,
like Tamburlaine, which was very popular in its time,
who its author was.
Tamburlaine was published anonymously
-- showing either that the name of
'Marlowe' had zero sales value, or that
he did not write it, or both. The first
edition was in 1590, the second in 1592
and a third in 1605/6. None mentioned
Marlowe.

In fact, Marlowe's name was not linked
to the work until the 19th century (as far
as I recall).
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Paul, once again you prove yourself an invincible idiot.
Once again you show yourself as an
ignorant Stratfordian dolt, who believes
-- quite unquestioningly -- everything he
is told by other dolts.


Paul.
Gary
2010-04-21 01:29:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
Once again you show yourself as an
ignorant Stratfordian dolt, who believes
-- quite unquestioningly -- everything he
is told by other dolts.
Paul.
And how many times does he have to tell you that, Grumman
you dolt!

- Gary the dolt
Paul Crowley
2010-04-17 22:43:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Peter Farey
Every so often I notice something so obscenely
wrong by Paul that I just can't help responding.
Christopher Marlowe was quite clearly believed to
be the greatest dramatist of his day, with a
reputation second to none.
Standard doctrine (which Marlites
usually follow rigorously) states
that dramatists of the time had
NO reputations --- good, bad or
indifferent.
Peter, I hope you will answer this in detail.
Not a chance.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I will just say that the remarks made about
Marlowe shortly after his death, indicate he was
extremely esteemed by his peers.
Quote a two or three of those remarks.

But even if you were to find some, you'd
miss the point. Peter's claim was that
Marlowe had a good public reputation,
the loss of which he would have found
extremely distressing.

All the evidence is to the contrary.


Paul.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-18 14:43:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by Peter Farey
Every so often I notice something so obscenely
wrong by Paul that I just can't help responding.
Christopher Marlowe was quite clearly believed to
be the greatest dramatist of his day, with a
reputation second to none.
Standard doctrine (which Marlites
usually follow rigorously) states
that dramatists of the time had
NO reputations --- good, bad or
indifferent.
Peter, I hope you will answer this in detail.
Not a chance.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I will just say that the remarks made about
Marlowe shortly after his death, indicate he was
extremely esteemed by his peers.
Quote a two or three of those remarks.
But even if you were to find some, you'd
miss the point.  Peter's claim was that
Marlowe had a good public reputation,
the loss of which he would have found
extremely distressing.
All the evidence is to the contrary.
Paul.
Pual, Greene complimented him when he was alive, others in
eulogies after he was killed. That''s enough to me to refute
your contention that he had "no" reputation. As for what
his "public reputation" was and how important that was to
him, who could possibly know?

Anyway, I'm not going to research it.

--Bob
Paul Crowley
2010-04-24 12:43:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Farey
Post by Paul Crowley
You have seen the rare Marlite (e.g.
Farey) pick a few words from a line
in a sonnet, say how they relate to
their man, and regard that as proof.
Every so often I notice something so
obscenely wrong by Paul that I just can't
help responding.
Peter seems to think I was criticising his
Sonnet readings from a Stratfordian point
of view.
Post by Peter Farey
Christopher Marlowe was
quite clearly believed to be the greatest
dramatist of his day, with a reputation
second to none.
The topic of Marlowe's 'reputation' prior
to his death has been dealt with in some
detail -- with, of course, virtually no
response from Peter or any other Marlite.
Post by Peter Farey
As for the Sonnets, and as I have repeated
One has only to take as a starting point
that he usually means what he actually
says, rather than what he must have
meant if he was who most people think he
is. For example, take "a wretch's knife" to
mean a wretch's knife, rather than assume
that he must have really meant Old Father
Time's scythe;
Stratfordian 'explanations' are, of course,
nonsense, and to claim that in a small
number of instances the Marlite reading
is superior is pathetic. We might accept
that Hank Whittemore, or many other
anti-Strat interpreter of the Sonnets have
also produced a few 'better' readings while
rejecting their entire thesis as absurd.

If two blind men take turns to fire shots at
a target on a barn door, each will often
closer to it than the other. What Peter is
doing (and what Hank and the others do)
is to ignore the general pattern, and pick
a few instances where their own effort
seems closer than the Strat one.
Post by Peter Farey
take an "outcast state" to
mean an outcast state, not just a feeling
that nobody likes him;
A truly absurd reading. There is not a
hint in the Sonnet that the poet has been
banished to a foreign land. The 'deaf
heauen' whom he troubles with his
bootless cries is a person -- referred to
as 'heauen' throughout the Sonnets.

When in disgrace with Fortune and mens eyes, 029:01
I all alone beweepe my out-cast state, 029:02
And trouble deafe heauen with my bootlesse cries, 029:03
And looke vpon my selfe and curse my fate. 029:04

And to whom is the poet complaining?
Strats and Marlites assume that this
line, and numerous others in apparently
the same tone, are purposeless private
whines, made to whoever will listen -- the
self-pitying drunk at the bar, who gets on
everyone's nerves.

The poet is, of course, playing on and
with that tone. But he is also making a
sensible coherent plea to his beloved (his
master-mistress) to exercise her enormous
powers in his favour.
Post by Peter Farey
and accept that
when he says his "name receives a brand"
it means that his reputation has been
permanently damaged,
Indeed. Shame that Marlowe never had a
reputation that could be damaged. Whereas
the 17th earl of an ancient line had a lot to
lose, and lose it he truly did.
Post by Peter Farey
and not simply
that acting is considered a somewhat
disreputable profession.
Stratfordian nonsense, of course.
Post by Peter Farey
In Sonnet 25, for example, we find that
something unexpected ("unlooked for")
has happened
The poet was fully aware of both senses
of the phrase, and would have meant them.
Post by Peter Farey
to the poet, which will deny him the chance
Most people experience surprises, which
change their lives.
Post by Peter Farey
to boast of "public honour and proud
titles", and which seems to have led to
some enforced travel far away, possibly even
overseas (26-28, 34, 50-51, 61).
If the poet had been overseas, it would be
quite apparent in all manner of ways. But,
in fact, there is nothing.
Post by Peter Farey
We get
confirmation that this going away was
probably a one-off event (48)
Truly ridiculous.
Post by Peter Farey
and whatever
it was, it is clearly also associated with
his being "in disgrace with fortune and
men's eyes", that "outcast state" (29), his
"blots" and "bewailed guilt" (36).
No 'going-away' event is visible anywhere
in the Sonnets. Linking 'it' to a some fairly
random collection of other phrases is a
pathetic exercise.
Post by Peter Farey
What he most enjoyed about his past life
seems, according to him, to have been the
reason for his downfall
(a) Any connection here is imagined.
(b) The idea is so vague that it can virtually
be regarded as a tautology.
Post by Peter Farey
"Consumed by
that which it was nourished by" (73) or
Quod me nutrit me destruit, as Marlowe's
putative portrait at Corpus Christi,
Cambridge, puts it.
Almost anything in most human lives could
fit this description.
Post by Peter Farey
In fact he thinks that,
just like Marlowe, he will be remembered as
having died a cowardly death, knifed by
some base 'wretch' (74).
A gross misreading. The poet is "too base
of thee to be remembered", i.e. there will be
no memory.
Post by Peter Farey
There is some concern that the identities
of either the poet or the addressee might
be discovered (76),
The tone of 76 is light, and it is full of jokes.
Any concern is slight.
Post by Peter Farey
but presumably not by
the latter's friends and descendants,
Where do these come from? The coded
allusions throughout the Sonnets show that
those identities needed to be kept secret.
Any theory as to why requires something
more than a 'presumably'.
Post by Peter Farey
for whom his name at least will have 'immortal
life' because of these Sonnets (81).
Since his name is never mentioned, or
even indicated, that is manifestly false.
Yet the addressee's "name from hence
immortall life shall have" and that person
will lie 'intombed in mens eyes'.

There is a much better solution.
Post by Peter Farey
However, even though the poet says that
the poems will last for all time, he knows
that for some reason he will not be
remembered as the author of them (81).
True, and he is well used to that state
of anonymity.
Post by Peter Farey
In Sonnet 110, we finally discover just
what apparently caused the disgrace and
"outcast state" mentioned earlier,
You can propose so -- but you have no
evidence.
Post by Peter Farey
what the
"vulgar scandal" (112) is, and how it is that
his "name receives a brand" (111).
Gross over-reading. That the poet had
episodes of much disgrace cannot be
doubted. But there is no reason to
assume that there was only one, or that
Sonnet 110 sets out anything in particular.
Post by Peter Farey
Not only
has he "looked on" spiritual truth "askance
He says nothing that suggests the 'truth'
in this case is spiritual. In fact, the absence
of everything religious from this Sonnet, the
bawdy (e.g. 'have what shall have no end'
'I never more will grinde') and the almost
blasphemous jokes ('A God in love')
demonstrate the opposite.
Post by Peter Farey
and strangely", but publicly expressed
these views in a way that defiled and
cheapened them. He now regrets this, and
blames having to get his living from the
public for these "public manners". There is
also a possible reference ("ore-greene my
bad") to an attack on him by Robert
Greene for those views (112).
Absurd.
Post by Peter Farey
For him, there is no God but his friend,
It's a joke -- admittedly one that would not
be made by religious person.
Post by Peter Farey
and no Heaven to be found but in his
bosom (110).
God help us.
Post by Peter Farey
Christian ritual is of no importance to him;
His deep knowledge, and frequent references
to it, do not suggest that.
Post by Peter Farey
nor are any actions
based upon the assumption of an after-life,
True.
Post by Peter Farey
in which he apparently doesn't believe
(125).
Another misreading.
Post by Peter Farey
You have seen the rare Marlite (e.g.
Farey) pick a few words from a line
in a sonnet, say how they relate to
their man, and regard that as proof.
No Paul, my argument relates to far more
than just a few lines (and were you at all
interested in an honest discussion you
would acknowledge this)
Your argument on the Sonnets takes the
form that has become traditional -- that
shown by Hank, and every other Sonnet
interpreter (with only one exception).
You have decided on your theory, and to
back it up you pick phrases from the
entire body (of 2155 lines). You make
'a case' by stitching together more-or-less
random phrases, mostly either quite mis-
read, or distorted with extreme bias. Your
post here is as good a demonstration of
that 'method' as one could expect to see.


Paul.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-15 16:40:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I'm not sure how long I'll waste time on this post,
but I'll answer this. All poems have some
literal meaning.
And this is a Matter of Faith.
Well, to pull a Crowley on you, let me ask you
why you can't give me a single example of a poem
that does not have a literal meaning.

Actually, as I know because I've seriously read hundreds
of poems and am fairly familiar with all the kinds composed
since 1900 in English, and you aren't, there ARE a group
of slatherings of text that their authors claim are poems
and call "asemic poems." Other than these, I've never
seen a poem that does not have some sort of literal meaning.

Since poems are made up of words and since words have
literal meanings, I can scarcely understand how a poem can
fail to have some kind of literal meaning.
Post by Paul Crowley
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Yes, but the literal message does not
disappear because you think you can "decode" it/
I have told you again and again that
the obvious simple theme about the
weather remains.
You argued above (I thought, but I snipped too soon, I
guess) that this poem didn't have a literal meaning.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
and the evidence solidly against one,
What evidence against which one?
Who wrote the poem. Don't bother refuting
this. We know your answer.
Sorry, I did not realise that I was
impinging on your Matters of Faith.
Thank you. It's really bad for my emotional health
when someone impinges on my faith in facts such
as those that indicate Shakespeare wrote this poem,
particularly when such facts are contradicted by
no other facts whatsoever, only by your fact-free
certainty that Oxford wrote the sonnet, which--of
course--is not a matter of faith.

I wonder if I keep wasting time on you because you make it
so easy for me to practice the art of insult.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
as well as our knowledge of creativity and of
Oxford, the first indicating that no other 16-year-
old ever wrote such a fine poem, even
Chatterton,
This really should not be a problem.
There is nothing in the Sonnet that
requires maturity -- and we agree that
the poet was a genius.
Something unprecedented requires better
evidence than you have.
Shake-speare's genius was unprecedented.
That alone is evidence enough.
No, it wasn't.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Of course, only
you believe the poem requires maturity.
Although if it has what you think it does,
it has the most incredible mix of immaturity
and maturity I know of.
State one undeniable item of evidence
that shows the poet was over, say, 21.
Show one that shows he was not. This is
stupid, Paul. Natuarlly, I think that the
skill of the versification, the logic of
the design of the poem, the lack of
any kind of unbalance, the "temperance"
of the style, the seeming fairly long
immersion in the sonnet tradition (i.e.,
this sonnet is beautifully part of the
sonnet tradition, flowing naturally out
of it, which indicates its author has
been exposed to a lot of sonnets,
and thought about them deeply and
maturely). the lack of showboating
(no big words, no fancy matephors,
no clever twists of theme), and much
else indicates the poet was at least 22,
and certainly older than 18. That he
never bettered it, supports this.

Meanwhile, you simply think everything
in the poem inidcates immaturity. So
where are we. Its your opinion against mine.
What, then, is the point of discussing it?
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
the second concerning Oxford's known poems,
This is more nonsense. The authorship
of 'his known poems' is guesswork. If he
did write any in that 'collection' then he
wrote them when he was even younger.
Isn't unfalsifiability great!
You made the claim.
You can't back it up.
There are poems with his name attached to them,
that just about all the scholars with knowledge of
the field give him. He is stated to have been a poet,
which suggests that he must have written poems
under his own name. Their date of publication suggests
they were written after he was 16. All you have against
this is your standard knowledge without factual support
that you must be right, everyone else wrong.

Isn't certainty with no need for factual support great?
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Ignoring implications for poetry for
the moment, I am putting forward an
integrated set of historical propositions.
The only question is "Are they true or
false?" You must maintain that they
are completely false and that the
Sonnet has no more to do with
Elizabeth, Mary QS, Darnley, Riccio
and Ruthven, than it does to the
battle of Marathon, or to Christ's
crucifixion. You must maintain that
EACH of my propositions is utter
nonsense.
You are insane. All I need maintain is that
your interpretation is implausible, as I have,
showing WHY it is implausible.
Where and when did you do this?
Isn't obtuse denial great?
Where and when did you do this?
Isn't obtuse denial great?
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
If I say, "Jack jumped over the candlestick," is
about Columbus discovering America because
"candlestick" begins with the same letter as
Columbus's name, it is not enough to make my
reading plausible.
Really? Such logic.
[garbage deleted}
No, perfect use of the Crowley method to
interpret the secret message of a nursery rhyme
deleted because Crowley can't show where it
inaccurately represents what he does.
Plain texts don't usually have 'secret'
messages encoded in them. But
sometimes they do. You simply lack
all mental equipment for deciding
between genuine claims (for the
presence of codes) and made-up ones.
Not so. I merely lack the ability to accept
you, someone who has read no poetry seriously
by anyone but Shakespeare, has written no
serious piece on poetics, is not a poet, has
never had anything about poetry published
anywhere but at Internet forums like HLAS
where any idiot can get published, and hasn't yet
gotten anyone to agree with his nonsense (unless
this obvious loon Franz does), are undeniably
right because you say you are.
Post by Paul Crowley
If you worked for an intelligence
agency, you'd find that every message
crossing your desk was pure and
simple and contained no secrets.
Doesn't having a binary mind make coming
to decisions about those who argue with you easy?

I don't find a secret message in Sonnet 18;
ergo, I am incapable of finding secret messages
in anything. Good thinking, Paul.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Note how your only aim is to avoid
discussing my interpretation of
Sonnet 18
You are insane. I discussed what was wrong
with what you got out of line one, or do you deny
even that?
Yes. You cannot even begin to
consider my case. For you there is
no balance, no weighing of arguments
for and against. There is simply one
massive prejudice against.
Yikes, now you aren't even claiming I can't argue
with your insanity, you're claiming I can't even
DISCUSS it! What do you think all the words
I wrote about you moronic "summers day" "pun"
were? What do you think what I said about
the fact that this poem clearly has no
secondary meaning--that most lyric poems
should be taken at face value? What have
I been discussing if not your interpretation?
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I have constantly pointed out the invalidity of your
method.
See? For you, there is no possibility
whatever of a hidden or secondary
meaning. The sonnet can only be
about the weather, and nothing else.
There is always a possibility that a poem has a
secondary meaning. I merely fail to see any
evidence of one here. Although there's a good chance
of one trivial hidden meaning that we will probably
never no of, the identity of the addressee. But there is
no significant complex secondary meaning.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
In the first place, it doesn't say "you are more
loving"; it says, "you are more lovely."
If you had ever studied Sonnet 18 you
would know that 'lovely' could mean
'loving' in Elizabethan English.
You can always find some rare usage for a word,
Wrong. In any case, this was far from
rare. It was, in fact, the original sense
of the word; it appears in Shake-speare,
and this sense continued well into the
17th century
'LOVELY' (OED)
1. a. Loving, kind, affectionate. Obs.
c1400 Laud Troy Bk. 565 And welcomed hem with louely chere.
1533�9 T. St. Aubyn in Lisle Papers XIII. 96 (MS.) With much
hearty and lovely recommendations.
1602 Narcissus (1893) 129 Wee are . . . the kings owne lovely
subiects.
OBSOLETE, almost certainly rare by Shakespeare's time.
Post by Paul Crowley
b. Amorous. Obs.
1587 M. Grove Pelops & Hipp. (1878) 74 The letter of a friend of
a wounded Louer, . . . to disswade him from this louelie follie.
1592 Lyly Midas iii. iii, Amerula, another tale or none, this is too
louely. Sua. Nay let me heare anie woman tell a tale of x lines long
without it tend to love, and I will [etc.].
1599 Shakes. etc. Pass. Pilgr. iv, Sweet Cytherea . . . Did court
the Lad with many a louely looke.
c. Friendly, amicable. Obs. (? Sc.)
a1649 Drummond of Hawthornden Hist. Scot. (1655) 12
After lovely advice at the Council-Table . . . he was freely dismist.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
but in the context of the poem, the word means
"beautiful."
As you, with your exceedingly simple
mind, must read the poem.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Nothing follows it that is about being loving, only
about being lovely and temperate.
All the rest of the poem that is about
'thou' and 'thee' (from line 9 on) fits
with her being a loving monarch.
rough winds mar the day's beauty, the sun's
gold is blocked, the sun gets too hot (or unloving,
but also ugy) , "faires" decline, and fair has
more to do with beauty than lovingness.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And there's no reason whatever for the poet to
say "lovely" if he meant "loving."
God help us. The poet was aiming
at AMBIGUITY. He was ALSO writing
about the weather (or pretending to).
That could be 'lovely', but hardly 'loving'.
Well, actually, one could easily poeticize the sun
as loving, or a soothing breeze as loving.

I would concede, after your extra quotations from the time,
that "lovely" could mean "loving," but it must also mean
"beautiful." ANd this is NOT ambiguity, this is simply
a combination of two compatible meanings.

That "beautiful" is the stronger meaning seems to follow
from what the poem says, but ALSO from the sonnet tradition,
in which the beauty of addressees in poems like this one
is much more often praised than the lovingness.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Find one person to agree with you that
Americans are incapable of recognizing irony.
You'll soon be telling us that your next
President (Sarah Palin) is both cultured
and sophisticated.
Find one person to agree with you that Americans
are incapable of recognizing irony.
Post by Paul Crowley
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
You accept that my reading makes
sense. You will not be able to do that
with Hank or anyone else.
I accept that what little of it there is for the first
four lines makes a sort of sense although it is
invalid. It has to do more than make sense.
It has to (a) relate well
intricately, to more than a few scattered
Post by Paul Crowley
words of
the Sonnet, and (b) (intricately) accord with
more than merely refer to
Post by Paul Crowley
the facts of history.
Those are the ONLY tests.
You're assuming a poem must have something to
do with history, but most poems are ahistorical.
Some don't, and there is no evidence this does.
Post by Paul Crowley
u have
not (and cannot) contradict either.
Whereas every other attempt to decode
the sonnets is in serious breach of one
or the other, and nearly always both.
Hank's does as well as yours.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Marlites are usually careful to
avoid the sonnets.
This is not so, but you won't believe me when I
tell you I've read descriptions by Marlovian about
what certain of the sonnets were about.
You have seen the rare Marlite (e.g.
Farey) pick a few words from a line
in a sonnet, say how they relate to
their man, and regard that as proof.
Farey, I'm sure, doesn't regard it as proof but as
good evidence. You do no more, so far as I can
see. In any case, however slight and poor what
Farey, for one, has doen in this way, it indicates
that Marlovians have made interpreations of
your kind of the sonnets. (Others, I know, have
done intricate interpretations; I can't believe Roberta
Ballantine did not, since she has dones such
interpretaions of whole plays._
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Farey can tell you about "When in disgrace," for
example.
Sure -- a few words. But the facts of
history don't support his reading of them.
Marlowe was of low status; he never
had much of a reputation to lose, and
would not waste his breath crying
about any conceivable loss of it.
This is SO idiotic. For Pete's sake, an impoverished
two-year-old can bewail being in a state of disgrace!
Do you know ANYthing about hum beings, Paul? In any
case, Farey has interpreted the sonnets in spite of
your certainty that only YOU have connected any sonnet
validly to history.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
All attempts at decoding a message
are beyond the hopeless when you
don't have the context. Could the
Pentagon make sense of a coded
German message about U-boats if
they thought it was a Japanese one
about kamikaze pilots?
The wacks all think they have the context. But
you don't need any context, just the words of
the poem.
Eh? This is a new and distinctively
Grummanian doctrine.
Eh? Actually, it's been my main argument all along:
the poem is about what it says it is, not something
needing an external context to understand.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
I do NOT deny the shallow theme about
the weather (as I have told you an infinite
number of times). The poet was exploiting
ambiguity. But I know that you will never
grasp that concept.
You alternate between agreeing that it's
there and saying it is not.
Not so. I merely deny your philosophy
of poetry that says (in effect) there can
be only ONE meaning in a poem and
it must be possible set that out in a
simple literal manner.
I do not believe that. My book Of Manywhere-at
Once is about my belief that the best poems are
those that put a person into more than one
significant part of his brain at once--generally
through the use of metaphor, although there
are other ways a poem can do this, most
of them having to do with a poem's having
connotations and/or symbolic meanings, etc.

I believe Sonnet 18 does this auditorally--it
gradually puts a sensitive reader into a
visual experience of a summers day and
into a kind of block of music, that is a secondary
representation of a summer's day.

There's much more to it. My book will go
into in detail.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Ruthven had his way with her only in
the sense of his utter brutality, when
he invaded her privacy, and stabbed
Riccio, while he was trying to hide
behind her.
That made her boobs shake?
Yes. It was an intensely violent scene.
And Mary, as ever, shook with sobs.
Is all this what conventional historians believe?
Yes. There are detailed accounts.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
BUT the poet also had in mind the
overnight 30-mile horse-back ride,
often at a gallop, that Mary made from
Edinburgh to Dunbar, on escaping from
Ruthven and his gang a day later.
This is so absurd, Paul. Where are the horses
in the poem? You're just arbitrarily connecting
everything you can to your fixation on Elizabeth
and her times.
Ridiculous. The murder of Riccio (by
Darnley, Ruthven, and others) took place
in the private dining room of Mary QS,
and her escape and overnight flight from
the gang was only a few hours later.
It was all one brief episode, the story
of which was well-known to the English
court.
So, all the poet had to do was say "rough winds"
and a reader could be expected to think of this whole
story (with delight at how cleverly the poet expressed
it, no doubt).
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
That you believe
that means I must not be able to grasp
the concept of ambiguity is further evidence
of your extreme irrationality.
See (a) above for a classic example of
your inability to grasp the concept
You say ambiguity is used here, I disagree; ergo,
I am incpable of graspong what ambiguity is.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And there's no reason whatever for the poet to
say "lovely" if he meant "loving."
And see (b) below for another.
Maybe, in some theoretical sense,
you 'know' what ambiguity means.
But every time -- every single time
-- you encounter an example, you
miss it. You misunderstand the
point, and the text. It's like
claiming to know what an elephant
is, but failing to recognise the
animal every time you see one.
Don't worry too much about it.
Huge numbers of Americans (and
academics) have the same blindness.
Do you remember how often I used
to have to quote the Redneck rule
-- "Ambiguity does not exist" ?
Sure. A marvelous expression of insanity.
Anyone who fails to find something ambiguous
that you calim is so, must believe that
ambiguity does not exist anywhere
in poetry. Or is it anywhere, at all?
find
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
For you, the sonnet says Ruthven is
shaking Mary, and Darnley has lost patience
concerning Riccio.
The line is full of ambiguity (that
concept you find so mysterious) but
the main theme is (a) Darnley shakes
Mary -- in their rough sexual windings;
It can't mean that because the rough winds that
shake Mary equal Ruthven.
The most important sense of the line
IMO is the rough windings of Darnley
and Mary in their sexual embrace.
(Remember that 'wind' in the sense
of air moving -- e.g 'southerly wind'
was pronounced to rhyme with 'mind'
and so was identical (if not with the
same meaning) to the word that forms
the first part of 'winding' -- as in a coiled
spring.)
A secondary (IMHO) sense was the
macaronic pun on "Ruth-ven" where
'Ruth' is rough. and 'ven' is wind.
A Joycean pun. What other poet ever used one?

And you have both Darnley and Ruthven shaking
Mary's boobs. Charming.
Post by Paul Crowley
The use of a word or phrase in two or
more senses employs what is known
as 'ambiguity'.
Only if they're contradictory. And they should be
contradictory for some poetic reason. Here you
having Darnley screwing Mary and Ruthven
agitating her by murdering someone. Meanwhile,
rough winds are shaking early summer buds.
What a poetically moving combination.
Post by Paul Crowley
I appreciate that
you have never encountered it before.
Or, if you have, you cannot remember
it, since it is so foreign to your culture.
Weird, that in spite of my defects, I have written
for reference books about poetry and had poems
widely published while you, the world's foremost
expert in poetry, have not be published anywhere
but in Internet discussion groups like HLAS as
critic or poet.
Post by Paul Crowley
Unfortunately, this handicap means
that you will never be able to make
sense of Shake-speare, or of much
else in Elizabethan literature.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
and (b) later Darnley gets jealous about
her 'short date'.
Of course it does.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Summers lease (Darnley's patience) has all too short
a date (has all too Mary's short date).
Maybe you are trying to read it in
some very literal manner (what a
surprise that would be!).
I am trying to read it sensibly using what you say its
words "really" mean.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You're just pulling references to what you think
was going on in Britain then, not trying at all to
reveal some kind of narrative.
The poet did not need to tell a story
to Elizabeth. Everyone in the English
court knew it.
Why bother with a poem about it, then?
He was not reporting facts about
events. He was analysing the political
situation, as well as making comments
to amuse.
Analyzing it?!! How? By pointing out that Mary
was a nymphomaniac, and Darnley a cad and
brute, and Ruthven rough? Some analysis. I'm
shocked Elizabeth didn't replace Burghley at
once with the siteen-year-old demigod, Oxford.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
If comparing a person to a summers day is
hackneyed because everyone knows of
the comparison?
Where did you THIS from?
From you.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
why is a discussion of
Mary and Elizabeth which everyone has heard
about not hackneyed?
The point was that _things_had_
_changed_. Up to this time, Mary QS
had been regarded highly by most
people -- including the English court.
She had been many points ahead of
her English 'sister'. She had left the
management of the country to her
ministers, and had done her duty by
giving birth to an heir. Now all that
was changing, and the poet could see
that Mary was on a downhill course.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
If you were to write a
poem about 9/11 would you set out
a narrative? Isn't it enough to refer to
the dominant images.
I'm not a journalist, so I wouldn't write a poem
about 9/11.
A better analogy here might be a poem
about Tiger Woods -- giving a wide
range for jokes and puns on golf.
Although (unlike the Mary QS case)
Tiger has no political influence, and
what happens to him is unlikely to
determine the fate of nations.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
What possible ways one could write
a poem is too complex to go into. I will just
say that in my experience of poetry, I've never
come across a poem that does what you say
this one does, nor in my experience as a poet
have I ever thought to compose a poem like it.
That does not matter. The issue is
whether or not it IS a poem -- as I
have outlined it.
Don't you agree that if you could find poems composed
as you say this one is, it would support your contention
about how this one was composed? You ask for a
precedent for Shakespeare's becoming a great writer
although having (according to you) illiterate parents;
why can't I ask for a precedent for this kind of poem,
and deem it unlikely if you can't find one?
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
It makes no sense.
You need to show HOW it does not
make sense.
Again, I do, but I can't get you to agree
that I do. But a hypothesis needs more than
it's creator's statement that it is correct
to be accepted, as you seem unable ever
to understand.
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
It needs a coherent narrative or some
equivalent thereof, and it doesn't.
This is just your own silly doctrine.
It's every sane poetry critic's doctrine. It even seems
to be Hank's. In any case, it's better than your doctrine,
which is that whatever you say is right, is right, because
you said it.
Post by Paul Crowley
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
The test of whether the ball falls inside
or outside the line is objective enough.
So are the tests of whether or not an
explanation matches the words of a
Sonnet and the facts of an historical
episode.
Those tests require someone sane to carry
them out.
It would be VERY EASY to show
the mismatch (a) between my reading
and the words of the Sonnet, and
(b) between my reading and the facts
of the history -- IF there was any such
mismatch.
You haven't. Neither has any Strat or
quasi-Strat.
Paul.
Then why hasn't the world at large accepted your reading?
Name one other theory that no one could so much as present
an argument against that remained for more than five years
rejected by EVERYONE except its author?

--Bob
Paul Crowley
2010-04-19 19:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I'm not sure how long I'll waste time on this post,
but I'll answer this. All poems have some
literal meaning.
And this is a Matter of Faith.
Well, to pull a Crowley on you, let me ask you
why you can't give me a single example of a
poem that does not have a literal meaning.
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Oh freddled gruntbuggly
thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.
Groop I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes.
And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,
Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts
with my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!"
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Since poems are made up of words and since
words have literal meanings, I can scarcely
understand how a poem can fail to have some
kind of literal meaning.
The notion that "all words have literal
meanings" could only be articulated by
a child, or someone whose thinking
is childish. Look up the word 'literal'
and see that each of its definitions
has an opposite, and that words fit
that case.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Of course, only
you believe the poem requires maturity.
Although if it has what you think it does,
it has the most incredible mix of immaturity
and maturity I know of.
State one undeniable item of evidence
that shows the poet was over, say, 21.
Show one that shows he was not.
There are no words, phrases or expressions
that would indicate (say) experience of
foreign travel, or knowledge of a profession,
or a university degree, or parenthood, or
marriage. Which is not to say that this
poet was extraordinarily precocious.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
This is
stupid, Paul. Natuarlly, I think that the
skill of the versification, the logic of
the design of the poem, the lack of
any kind of unbalance, the "temperance"
of the style, the seeming fairly long
immersion in the sonnet tradition (i.e.,
this sonnet is beautifully part of the
sonnet tradition, flowing naturally out
of it, which indicates its author has
been exposed to a lot of sonnets,
and thought about them deeply and
maturely). the lack of showboating
(no big words, no fancy matephors,
no clever twists of theme), and much
else indicates the poet was at least 22,
and certainly older than 18. That he
never bettered it, supports this.
If you accept that the poet could have
been 18 or 19 then we have no real
argument. Prior to analysing it and
identifying its topics, I certainly would
have assumed an older poet. But we
are talking about a poetic genius,
and should not be too surprised to
discover that he was astonishingly
precocious.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Meanwhile, you simply think everything
in the poem inidcates immaturity. So
where are we. Its your opinion against mine.
What, then, is the point of discussing it?
You raised it as a serious objection.
But you can find nothing to support
that objection.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Yikes, now you aren't even claiming I can't argue
with your insanity, you're claiming I can't even
DISCUSS it! What do you think all the words
I wrote about you moronic "summers day" "pun"
were?
You have written very few words on
my 'moronic "summers day" "pun" '
-- all you say is that you don't like it
-- and also note how you not got
beyond the first line.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
In the first place, it doesn't say "you are more
loving"; it says, "you are more lovely."
If you had ever studied Sonnet 18 you
would know that 'lovely' could mean
'loving' in Elizabethan English.
You can always find some rare usage for a word,
Wrong. In any case, this was far from
rare. It was, in fact, the original sense
of the word; it appears in Shake-speare,
and this sense continued well into the
17th century
'LOVELY' (OED)
1. a. Loving, kind, affectionate. Obs.
c1400 Laud Troy Bk. 565 And welcomed hem with louely chere.
1533�9 T. St. Aubyn in Lisle Papers XIII. 96 (MS.) With much
hearty and lovely recommendations.
1602 Narcissus (1893) 129 Wee are . . . the kings owne lovely
subiects.
OBSOLETE, almost certainly rare by
Shakespeare's time.
It is obsolete TODAY -- and was in the
20th century. The OED gives examples
of uses 40 and more years after this
Sonnet was written. This sense was
certainly common enough for the poet
to use with a sense of punning irony.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
b. Amorous. Obs.
1587 M. Grove Pelops & Hipp. (1878) 74 The letter of a friend of
a wounded Louer, . . . to disswade him from this louelie follie.
1592 Lyly Midas iii. iii, Amerula, another tale or none, this is too
louely. Sua. Nay let me heare anie woman tell a tale of x lines long
without it tend to love, and I will [etc.].
1599 Shakes. etc. Pass. Pilgr. iv, Sweet Cytherea . . . Did court
the Lad with many a louely looke.
c. Friendly, amicable. Obs. (? Sc.)
a1649 Drummond of Hawthornden Hist. Scot. (1655) 12
After lovely advice at the Council-Table . . . he was freely dismist.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And there's no reason whatever for the poet to
say "lovely" if he meant "loving."
God help us. The poet was aiming
at AMBIGUITY. He was ALSO writing
about the weather (or pretending to).
That could be 'lovely', but hardly 'loving'.
Well, actually, one could easily poeticize the sun
as loving, or a soothing breeze as loving.
I would concede, after your extra quotations from
the time, that "lovely" could mean "loving," but it
must also mean "beautiful." ANd this is NOT
ambiguity, this is simply a combination of two
compatible meanings.
Ridiculous. There would be no point
whatever to the poet intending "a
combination of two compatible
meanings" in this context.

[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The wacks all think they have the context. But
you don't need any context, just the words of
the poem.
Eh? This is a new and distinctively
Grummanian doctrine.
Eh? Actually, it's been my main argument all
along: the poem is about what it says it is, not
something needing an external context to
understand.
A Grumman slogan to remember:
"You don't need any context, just the
words of the poem."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You alternate between agreeing that it's
there and saying it is not.
Not so. I merely deny your philosophy
of poetry that says (in effect) there can
be only ONE meaning in a poem and
it must be possible set that out in a
simple literal manner.
I do not believe that. My book Of Manywhere-at
Once is about my belief that the best poems are
those that put a person into more than one
significant part of his brain at once--generally
through the use of metaphor, although there
are other ways a poem can do this, most
of them having to do with a poem's having
connotations and/or symbolic meanings, etc.
I believe Sonnet 18 does this auditorally--it
gradually puts a sensitive reader into a
visual experience of a summers day and
into a kind of block of music, that is a secondary
representation of a summer's day.
There's much more to it. My book will go
into in detail.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shame no one will ever read it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
BUT the poet also had in mind the
overnight 30-mile horse-back ride,
often at a gallop, that Mary made from
Edinburgh to Dunbar, on escaping from
Ruthven and his gang a day later.
This is so absurd, Paul. Where are the horses
in the poem? You're just arbitrarily connecting
everything you can to your fixation on Elizabeth
and her times.
Ridiculous. The murder of Riccio (by
Darnley, Ruthven, and others) took place
in the private dining room of Mary QS,
and her escape and overnight flight from
the gang was only a few hours later.
It was all one brief episode, the story
of which was well-known to the English
court.
So, all the poet had to do was say "rough winds"
and a reader could be expected to think of this
whole story (with delight at how cleverly the poet
expressed it, no doubt).
There was no "a reader". There was
'the reader' i.e. Elizabeth. A few other
courtiers probably also saw the poem.
It was, in effect, the same system as
had prevailed in all European and other
countries since the beginning of time --
that of patronage. These poems were
not written for a mass readership (as
Strats idiotically believe, and have to
believe). They were written for those
in power -- above all, the monarch.

That audience was highly educated,
knew what was going on, and talked
with the poet about current issues.
He would have reflected their own
opinions, attitudes, jokes and puns
in his poetry. The monarch would
have known exactly what the poet
was talking about.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
That you believe
that means I must not be able to grasp
the concept of ambiguity is further evidence
of your extreme irrationality.
See (a) above for a classic example of
your inability to grasp the concept
You say ambiguity is used here, I disagree; ergo,
I am incpable of graspong what ambiguity is.
Nope. I say that Term X means 'X1'.
Later I say it also means 'X2'. You
protest, claiming that I said it meant
'X1', and not 'X2', and therefore I am
contradicting myself.

This happens time and time and time
again -- as it does generally with ignorant
Strats and quasi-Strats.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And there's no reason whatever for the poet to
say "lovely" if he meant "loving."
And see (b) below for another.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
For you, the sonnet says Ruthven is
shaking Mary, and Darnley has lost patience
concerning Riccio.
The line is full of ambiguity (that
concept you find so mysterious) but
the main theme is (a) Darnley shakes
Mary -- in their rough sexual windings;
It can't mean that because the rough winds that
shake Mary equal Ruthven.
The most important sense of the line
IMO is the rough windings of Darnley
and Mary in their sexual embrace.
(Remember that 'wind' in the sense
of air moving -- e.g 'southerly wind'
was pronounced to rhyme with 'mind'
and so was identical (if not with the
same meaning) to the word that forms
the first part of 'winding' -- as in a coiled
spring.)
A secondary (IMHO) sense was the
macaronic pun on "Ruth-ven" where
'Ruth' is rough. and 'ven' is wind.
A Joycean pun. What other poet ever used one?
Macaronic puns are as old as language.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And you have both Darnley and Ruthven shaking
Mary's boobs. Charming.
The whole point is that at this moment
Mary QS was a figure of fun in the
English court -- especially for Elizabeth.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
The use of a word or phrase in two or
more senses employs what is known
as 'ambiguity'.
Only if they're contradictory.
Where the heck do you get THIS rule
from?

Certainly contrast helps -- but it's
hardly essential.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And they should be
contradictory for some poetic reason. Here you
having Darnley screwing Mary and Ruthven
agitating her by murdering someone. Meanwhile,
rough winds are shaking early summer buds.
What a poetically moving combination.
The poet is superficially a comment on
the weather. But, in reality, it carries all
sorts of subversive meanings in glorious
contrast with the banal image of buds on
trees and bushes in May (in fact, there
are relatively few buds in May -- all buds
are out and finished now in London --
i.e. in mid-April after a very cold winter).
You are free to contemplate whichever
of the 'conflicting' images you prefer.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
I appreciate that
you have never encountered it before.
Or, if you have, you cannot remember
it, since it is so foreign to your culture.
Weird, that in spite of my defects, I have written
for reference books about poetry
Shame no one has read them
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
The poet did not need to tell a story
to Elizabeth. Everyone in the English
court knew it.
Why bother with a poem about it, then?
He was not reporting facts about
events. He was analysing the political
situation, as well as making comments
to amuse.
Analyzing it?!! How? By pointing out that Mary
was a nymphomaniac, and Darnley a cad and
brute, and Ruthven rough? Some analysis.
It was pretty accurate. Remember that
the news these events had just arrived.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I'm shocked Elizabeth didn't replace Burghley at
once with the siteen-year-old demigod,
Burghley, Elizabeth, Oxford, and the
rest of the court were pretty much of
one mind about Mary QS and these
events.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
say that in my experience of poetry, I've never
come across a poem that does what you say
this one does, nor in my experience as a poet
have I ever thought to compose a poem like it.
That does not matter. The issue is
whether or not it IS a poem -- as I
have outlined it.
Don't you agree that if you could find poems
composed as you say this one is, it would
support your contention about how this one was
composed?
I'm sure that there were. But poems of
the day following this pattern would appeal,
and make sense, only to a small highly-
educated coterie, who shared private
knowledge (e.g. about nicknames).
So we are talking only about aristocrats,
and to poetry written by other aristocrats.
(Jokes about high-status people would
not be tolerated if they came from lower-
class ones.) The likelihood that any of
this was printed or survived is remote.

However, all aspects of the humour that
I point out in these Sonnets is very well-
known -- puns, sarcasm, irony, double-
entendres, plays on personal names and
characteristics. The combination and
intensity that we see in the Sonnets is
necessarily unusual, but you take care
never to say of any particular instance
that it is, in principle, unprecedented.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You ask for a precedent for Shakespeare's
becoming a great writer although having
(according to you) illiterate parents;
Wrong. I ask for the name of ANY
writer (terrible to great) who was brought
up in an illiterate household. (And no
sane person claims the Stratman did.)
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
why can't I ask for a precedent for this kind of
poem, and deem it unlikely if you can't find one?
I can give simple obvious reasons why
such poems would rarely have survived
from the Elizabethan (or earlier) aristocracy.
You can't give any remotely plausible
reason why (in your view) the Stratman
was the only writer in all time who grew
up in an illiterate household.

[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
The test of whether the ball falls inside
or outside the line is objective enough.
So are the tests of whether or not an
explanation matches the words of a
Sonnet and the facts of an historical
episode.
Those tests require someone sane to carry
them out.
It would be VERY EASY to show
the mismatch (a) between my reading
and the words of the Sonnet, and
(b) between my reading and the facts
of the history -- IF there was any such
mismatch.
You haven't. Neither has any Strat or
quasi-Strat.
Then why hasn't the world at large accepted your
reading?
These things take time. When most
Oxfordians are lost in PT nonsense,
nothing is going to move fast.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Name one other theory that no one could
so much as present an argument against that
remained for more than five years rejected by
EVERYONE except its author?
It's not even been properly articulated
yet. And who has rejected it? You
can't even consider it, finding puns
and ambiguity too much to take,


Paul.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-25 21:46:18 UTC
Permalink
I missed this delayed comeback of Paul's when it
appeared several days ago--and have been out of sorts
of late, so would not have wanted to deal with it, anyway.
I still feel lousy, and have real work to do--ironically, I'm
preparing a two-hour presentation on how to appreciate
Shakespeare's Sonnet 18, and poems in general that
I'm supposed to give this coming Friday. I'm having
trouble getting into it, so hoping that skirmishing with
Paul might wake me up.

I said, "All poems have some literal meaning."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
And this is a Matter of Faith.
AMusing how every opinion I have that Paul disagrees
with must be a "matter of faith," even though the
opinion expresses no belief in anything that breaks
any law of nature. For some reason Paul needs his
opponents to be more than merely mistaken; they
have to be without any evidence for their positions,
and incapable of mounting an argument in defense
of them. Yet, incredibly, in spite of how totally
incompetent his opponents are, the number of
followers Pual has gathered in his more than a
decade of advancing his views on the sonnets
equals . . . zero. I wager that he has not even
persuaded anyone that his views are worth
listening to--for their insights into the sonnets;
they are certainly worth listening to for what they
reveal of the workings of a lunatic's mind.
value
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Well, to pull a Crowley on you, let me ask you
why you can't give me a single example of a
poem that does not have a literal meaning.
    'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
    And the mome raths outgrabe.
A good example of the workings of a
gotta-win-every-step-of-a-debate-however-trivial
psychotic. Challenged to find a poem
without a literal meaning, which he can't do,
he spends four days scouring his brain for a
way out. As always, he finds one. Take the
challenge to mean no more than it explicitly
says--instead of what it obviously is intended
to mean, to wit: "Find a SERIOUS poem
without a literal meaning--or, really, since
there are exceptions to just about every rule,
find enough such poems to demonstrate
that less than 99.99% of serious poems have
a literal meaning."

Actually, his way out, is ineffective, though
remarkably ingenious--and probably would have
worked on just about anyone but me (a person
who has practiced close readings of difficult work
for many years)--because it seems to meet
the challenge. It doesn't. The poem has a
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
It was brilliantly light, and the slithery, silky,
lithe toads with a resemblance to doves
whirled in spirals and gamboled nimbly in the
marshland (WASTEland) waves
All mimsy were the borogoves,
Present were some sort of burrowing gophers--
toughed with sentimental, tottery (flimsly),
extremely unimportant (MiniMal) whimsy
And the mome raths outgrabe.
And the brief (MOMEntary), foam-frivoloous
raths, a kind of very harmless rat, the
harsh disposition of the normal rat being reduced in
them the way the sound of a hard "t" is reduced by
putting an "h" next to it, grazed away from the
serence seen (out of it)

You were unable to find this literal meaning because
of all its word-play, most of it dependendt on puns,
which are alien to an Irishman like yourself.

Seriously, Paul, the poem definitely literally sets up
a silly scene. It uses portmanteau words to suggest
meanings poetically rather than directly represent them,
but they still present a scene. And there's no secondary
description for us to decode them into.

Carroll defined his words, by the way. See
http://www.waxdog.com/jabberwocky/def.html. His
definitions are only possible ones, though--as he
himself suggests by giving us Humpty Dumpty's
definitions. His point surely being that it is up
to a given reader to interpret them by their sounds'
connotations. A fully correct paraphrase is
possible, though: simply repeating the words
of the text, which literally mean exactly what they
say--that we're with slithy toves in a brillig time, etc.

Thanks for the post, Paul. Getting into it has put me
in a good mood for the first time a several days.
Explicating poems (or stanzas of poems) is fun for
me--especially important ones.
Oh freddled gruntbuggly
thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.
Groop I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes.
And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,
Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts
with my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!"
Here you demonstrate that nonsense is not poetry. It
is an interesting question in poetics as to how to
distinguish nonsense from literature. I don't have
time to go into it at any length, but will merely say
that, for me, a text is nonsense, if after a generation
or so, no one has been able to make a paraphrase of
it that a consensus of knowledgeable observers
agree is reasonable--even if not indisputably valid.
As mine is of the Carroll passage. Your composition
could probably be given some such interpretation but
I've made my point with the Carroll stanza--though, of
course, you won't accept that I have.

In which case, pray tell me what's there if not a
literal meaning. If no meaning, it is not a poem.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Since poems are made up of words and since
words have literal meanings, I can scarcely
understand how a poem can fail to have some
kind of literal meaning.
The notion that "all words have literal
meanings" could only be articulated by
a child, or someone whose thinking
is childish.  
You fail to counter my childish statement. You
fail to show how a word has no literal meaning,
nor how, if it does, that would not confer some kind
of meaning in any text that it appears in. One needs
to go back to the most obivous truths sometimes
when arguing with a wack.
Look up the word 'literal'
and see that each of its definitions
has an opposite, and that words fit
that case.
I don't know what you're talking about. "Literal" means
"verbatim, actual." All poems have some sort of explicit,
actual meaning.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Of course, only
you believe the poem requires maturity.
Surely, I meant, "does not require maturity."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Although if it has what you think it does,
it has the most incredible mix of immaturity
and maturity I know of.
State one undeniable item of evidence
that shows the poet was over, say, 21.
Show one that shows he was not.
There are no words, phrases or expressions
that would indicate (say) experience of
foreign travel, or knowledge of a profession,
or a university degree, or parenthood, or
marriage.  Which is not to say that this
poet was extraordinarily precocious.
Show one item that shows he was NOT mature.
Of course, the exercise is idiotically valueless
since entirely subjective. I say, for instance,
that only a mature poet could organize a poem
this well, only a mature poet do the number of
things this one does with the sound of words
so effectively, only a muture poets could compose
so wonderfully simple but deep a poem. You
merely subjectively assert that the poet doesn't
do what I say he does, and that an child (of genius)
could do what he does do, in your subjective view--
which you subjectively assert must be accepted
as valid since it is YOUR view.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
This is
stupid, Paul.  Natuarlly, I think that the
skill of the versification, the logic of
the design of the poem, the lack of
any kind of unbalance, the "temperance"
of the style, the seeming fairly long
immersion in the sonnet tradition (i.e.,
this sonnet is beautifully part of the
sonnet tradition, flowing naturally out
of it, which indicates its author has
been exposed to a lot of sonnets,
and thought about them deeply and
maturely). the lack of showboating
(no big words, no fancy matephors,
no clever twists of theme), and much
else indicates the poet was at least 22,
and certainly older than 18.  That he
never bettered it, supports this.
If you accept that the poet could have
been 18 or 19 then we have no real
argument.  Prior to analysing it and
identifying its topics, I certainly would
have assumed an older poet. But we
are talking about a poetic genius,
and should not be too surprised to
discover that he was astonishingly
precocious.
I'm saying if he was "only" 18, he was,
yes, astonishingly precocious. It's possible.
It is ofcourse possible he was only 2. But
precedent needs to be taken into
consideration. Chatteron wrote some
poems at the age of 17 that were perhaps
as good as those of many second-level poets
(minor poets, still read), but this poem is
much better than anything he wrote then.

Another problem is that this poem is among
the very best of any of Shakespeare's sonnets.
It's hard to compare it to his plays, but I can't see
that it's much below the level of the best poetry
in his plays. It's hard for me to believe he could
have written a poem like this one at 18 and then not
improved--the way he improved from Titus to Two
Gentlemen to Twelfth Night.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Meanwhile, you simply think everything
in the poem inidcates immaturity.  So
where are we?  Its your opinion against mine.
What, then, is the point of discussing it?
You raised it as a serious objection.
But you can find nothing to support
that objection.
What is the point in discussing it if I sincerely
believe I've supported my objection and you
don't? How can I support my objection if
you refuse to accept that I've done so? And
just what have you done to support your belief
that Shakespeare was--you said 16 or younger,
though 19 would now be all right for you? You
haven't even shown marks of immaturity in the
poem, only the absence of silly indications of
maturity.

I just thought of another indication, for me, of
maturity--the focus on the friend or loved one
not for a great body or terrific smile but for
a temperate disposition. Also a rather mature
understanding of the brevity of the best things
in life--though one can be quite young and
have that understanding. One, in fact, can
be very mature about some things as a child.
Exactly what maturity is and how to identify it
in someone's writings would be extremely difficult
to determine--for anyone but a super-genius like you.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Yikes, now you aren't even claiming I can't argue
with your insanity, you're claiming I can't even
DISCUSS it!  What do you think all the words
I wrote about you moronic "summers day" "pun"
were?
You have written very few words on
my 'moronic "summers day" "pun" '
-- all you say is that you don't like it
-- and also note how you not got
beyond the first line.
?????

You really can't remember all the times I've talked about
what's wrong with it? For instance, "die" means have
an orgasm, not someone who has been copulated with.
You can't remember all I've said about tonal decorum?

You haven't checked all my posts after the one in which,
apparently, I noted how I had not gotten past the first line?
In one fairly recent post I discussed your paraphrase of the
first four lines--and even granted that it was not entirely
implausible. You were going to continue but haven't yet.
Nonetheless, I've discussed several of my problems with
other things you've said about what the poem means.

What can I do except say you're wrong? I know, direct you
to my posts. But, Paul, I claim I've done that already to no
avail. Why can't you assume that I really believe I have.
Even if I haven't, why then should I take the trouble to
find these posts and tell you where they are. And it would
be trouble--at least for me. Especially since you've removed
interpretations of yours I would have searched for.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
In the first place, it doesn't say "you are more
loving"; it says, "you are more lovely."
If you had ever studied Sonnet 18 you
would know that 'lovely' could mean
'loving' in Elizabethan English.
You can always find some rare usage for a word,
Wrong. In any case, this was far from
rare. It was, in fact, the original sense
of the word; it appears in Shake-speare,
and this sense continued well into the
17th century
'LOVELY' (OED)
1. a. Loving, kind, affectionate. Obs.
c1400 Laud Troy Bk. 565 And welcomed hem with louely chere.
1533 9 T. St. Aubyn in Lisle Papers XIII. 96 (MS.) With much
hearty and lovely recommendations.
1602 Narcissus (1893) 129 Wee are . . . the kings owne lovely
subiects.
OBSOLETE, almost certainly rare by
Shakespeare's time.
It is obsolete TODAY -- and was in the
20th century.  The OED gives examples
of uses 40 and more years after this
Sonnet was written.  This sense was
certainly common enough for the poet
to use with a sense of punning irony.
I went in to give into you on this. Except for
the irony, which is not there--because there
is nothing in the poem to indicate it would be there.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
b. Amorous. Obs.
1587 M. Grove Pelops & Hipp. (1878) 74 The letter of a friend of
a wounded Louer, . . . to disswade him from this louelie follie.
1592 Lyly Midas iii. iii, Amerula, another tale or none, this is too
louely. Sua. Nay let me heare anie woman tell a tale of x lines long
without it tend to love, and I will [etc.].
1599 Shakes. etc. Pass. Pilgr. iv, Sweet Cytherea . . . Did court
the Lad with many a louely looke.
c. Friendly, amicable. Obs. (? Sc.)
a1649 Drummond of Hawthornden Hist. Scot. (1655) 12
After lovely advice at the Council-Table . . . he was freely dismist.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And there's no reason whatever for the poet to
say "lovely" if he meant "loving."
God help us. The poet was aiming
at AMBIGUITY. He was ALSO writing
about the weather (or pretending to).
That could be 'lovely', but hardly 'loving'.
Well, actually, one could easily poeticize the sun
as loving, or a soothing breeze as loving.
I would concede, after your extra quotations from
the time, that "lovely" could mean "loving," but it
must also mean "beautiful."  And this is NOT
ambiguity, this is simply a combination of two
compatible meanings.
Ridiculous.  There would be no point
whatever to the poet intending "a
combination of two compatible
meanings" in this context.
No point in using one word to tell someone
she was both beautiful and loving? Good grief.
Doing that kind of thing is practically the
essence of being a poet.
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The wacks all think they have the context. But
you don't need any context, just the words of
the poem.
Eh? This is a new and distinctively
Grummanian doctrine.
Eh?  Actually, it's been my main argument all
along: the poem is about what it says it is, not
something needing an external context to
understand.
  "You don't need any context, just the
   words of the poem."
If a poem can't stand on its own (in its own time
\for those fluent in its language), it is a failure. This
is no eccentric belief but it the main axiom, as I
understand it, of the New Critics, who were the
last literary critics of poetry.

Context can help clarify but shouldn't be needed, or
needed much.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You alternate between agreeing that it's
there and saying it is not.
Not so. I merely deny your philosophy
of poetry that says (in effect) there can
be only ONE meaning in a poem and
it must be possible set that out in a
simple literal manner.
I do not believe that.  My book Of Manywhere-at-Once
is about my belief that the best poems are
those that put a person into more than one
significant part of his brain at once--generally
through the use of metaphor, although there
are other ways a poem can do this, most
of them having to do with a poem's having
connotations and/or symbolic meanings, etc.
I believe Sonnet 18 does this auditorally--it
gradually puts a sensitive reader into a
visual experience of a summers day and
into a kind of block of music, that is a secondary
representation of a summer's day.
There's much more to it.  My book will go
into in detail.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shame no one will ever read it.
Well, a few will; a few already have read parts of it.
If you weren';t a coward, you would also write a
book on a sonnet, or all of them, or on poetry, and
self-publish it as I hope to self-publish my book. You
can do so very inexpensively. And you would have one
purchaser, at least, assuming I'm still alive--and can
afford it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
BUT the poet also had in mind the
overnight 30-mile horse-back ride,
often at a gallop, that Mary made from
Edinburgh to Dunbar, on escaping from
Ruthven and his gang a day later.
This is so absurd, Paul. Where are the horses
in the poem? You're just arbitrarily connecting
everything you can to your fixation on Elizabeth
and her times.
Ridiculous. The murder of Riccio (by
Darnley, Ruthven, and others) took place
in the private dining room of Mary QS,
and her escape and overnight flight from
the gang was only a few hours later.
It was all one brief episode, the story
of which was well-known to the English
court.
So, all the poet had to do was say "rough winds"
and a reader could be expected to think of this
whole story (with delight at how cleverly the poet
expressed it, no doubt).
There was no "a reader".  There was
'the reader' i.e. Elizabeth.  A few other
courtiers probably also saw the poem.
It was, in effect, the same system as
had prevailed in all European and other
countries since the beginning of time --
that of patronage.  These poems were
not written for a mass readership (as
Strats idiotically believe, and have to
believe).  They were written for those
in power -- above all, the monarch.
Don't you agree that most poems are written for
more than a few people, Paul? And if these poems
were written for Lizzie only, or almost only, why
did Meres refer to them as privately-circulated
among his friends? Why were some of them
published before 1609?

Why did the poet say they'd last forever if he
didn't expect more than a handful of people to
read them?
That audience was highly educated,
knew what was going on, and talked
with the poet about current issues.
He would have reflected their own
opinions, attitudes, jokes and puns
in his poetry.  The monarch would
have known exactly what the poet
was talking about.
Who else was writing poems telling her what
she already knew? Surely others were, and
you can use their poems to show how common
the practice was.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
That you believe
that means I must not be able to grasp
the concept of ambiguity is further evidence
of your extreme irrationality.
See (a) above for a classic example of
your inability to grasp the concept
You say ambiguity is used here, I disagree; ergo,
I am incapable of graspong what ambiguity is.
Nope.  I say that Term X means 'X1'.
Later I say it also means 'X2'.  You
protest, claiming that I said it meant
'X1', and not 'X2', and therefore I am
contradicting myself.
This happens time and time and time
again -- as it does generally with ignorant
Strats and quasi-Strats.
I said there was no ambiguity where you said it was.
You then did not say I was wrong, you said I
was incapable of grasping what ambiguity was.
In other words, all I have to do is disagree with
you about some X once to prove I don't know
what X means. Your "X1" and "X2" have nothing
to do with this--or, if they do, you need to explain how.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And there's no reason whatever for the poet to
say "lovely" if he meant "loving."
And see (b) below for another.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
For you, the sonnet says Ruthven is
shaking Mary, and Darnley has lost patience
concerning Riccio.
The line is full of ambiguity (that
concept you find so mysterious) but
the main theme is (a) Darnley shakes
Mary -- in their rough sexual windings;
It can't mean that because the rough winds that
shake Mary equal Ruthven.
The most important sense of the line
IMO is the rough windings of Darnley
and Mary in their sexual embrace.
(Remember that 'wind' in the sense
of air moving -- e.g 'southerly wind'
was pronounced to rhyme with 'mind'
and so was identical (if not with the
same meaning) to the word that forms
the first part of 'winding' -- as in a coiled
spring.)
A secondary (IMHO) sense was the
macaronic pun on "Ruth-ven" where
'Ruth' is rough. and 'ven' is wind.
A Joycean pun.  What other poet ever used one?
Macaronic puns are as old as language.
Do give me an example of a poet of
Shakespeare's time who used a pun that
mixed words from two different languages, as
Joyce often did in Finnegans Wake. Make
that two different languages others than English.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And you have both Darnley and Ruthven shaking
Mary's boobs.  Charming.
The whole point is that at this moment
Mary QS was a figure of fun in the
English court -- especially for Elizabeth.
Can you give any evidence of that? Raleigh
dressing up as her and shaking his faked breasts,
for instance? Some poem that explicitly makes
fun of Mary?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
The use of a word or phrase in two or
more senses employs what is known
as 'ambiguity'.
Only if they're contradictory.
Where the heck do you get THIS rule
from?
Hmmm, you're right. I never checked on the
meaning of it, assuming it was a useful term.
If it only means a text with more than one meaning,
it is clearly useless.

Another reason for my thinking it had to mean
a text that suggests two contradictory things
about its referent, is that that is where it comes
up in serious poetry: Blake's Songs of Innocence
are a good example: are they ironic or innocent?
SOme of them are so naive they seem to many
to have to be ironic, but others could be sincere
expressions of Christian belief. And Blake was
a nut. Ergo, we can't be sure how to take them--
their tone is ambiguous.

It would seem idiotic to take "lovely" in Sonnet 18
as ambiguous if we allow it to mean loving, because
there's no reason whatever that it could not mean
lovely and loving at the same time. In other words,
it would have double meaning, but that double meaning
would be clear.

Now we need a word to means "having two or more
conflicting meanings." Because that is very much
different from simply have tow or more meanings.
Certainly contrast helps -- but it's
hardly essential.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And they should be
contradictory for some poetic reason.  Here you
having Darnley screwing Mary and Ruthven
agitating her by murdering someone.  Meanwhile,
rough winds are shaking early summer buds.
What a poetically moving combination.
The poet is superficially a comment on
the weather.  But, in reality, it carries all
sorts of subversive meanings in glorious
contrast with the banal image of buds on
trees and bushes in May (in fact, there
are relatively few buds in May -- all buds
are out and finished now in London --
i.e. in mid-April after a very cold winter).
You are free to contemplate whichever
of the 'conflicting' images you prefer.
"April" does not rhyme with "day."

The cluster of images you propose seems
ridiculous to me. And, as I keep saying,
poets have been writing about buds in May or
the equivalent for thousands of years, banal
as they are to you. It's kind of human to be
glad winter is over, and crops with be able to
be grown. Believe it or not, one of the main
rites in all religions I know about celebrate
the coming of spring.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
 I appreciate that
you have never encountered it before.
Or, if you have, you cannot remember
it, since it is so foreign to your culture.
Weird, that in spite of my defects, I have written
for reference books about poetry
Shame no one has read them
Hey, do let me know how you ascertained this.
I'd love to find out exactly how many have. Of course,
I know that you can't be correct: I have suggestions for
changes from editors concerning all of them, which seem
to me proof that the editors read my pieces. I have
e.mails from others who read them after they were published,
and quoted parts of them.

But even if no one does read them, and I'm sure few do, it is
still weird that someone as ignorant of poetry as you think I
am would be asekd, and paid, to write entries on the subject
for reference books (Schirmner's and Facts-on-Files are the
publishers of two of them--no big deal, but they are
mainstream publishers).
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
The poet did not need to tell a story
to Elizabeth. Everyone in the English
court knew it.
Why bother with a poem about it, then?
He was not reporting facts about
events. He was analysing the political
situation, as well as making comments
to amuse.
Analyzing it?!!  How?  By pointing out that Mary
was a nymphomaniac, and Darnley a cad and
brute, and Ruthven rough?  Some analysis.
It was pretty accurate.  Remember that
the news these events had just arrived.
WHere's the analysis? How was Lizzie to use the data?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I'm shocked Elizabeth didn't replace Burghley at
once with the sixteen-year-old demigod,
Burghley, Elizabeth, Oxford, and the
rest of the court were pretty much of
one mind about Mary QS and these
events.
Then what need for these poems of Eddy's?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
say that in my experience of poetry, I've never
come across a poem that does what you say
this one does, nor in my experience as a poet
have I ever thought to compose a poem like it.
That does not matter. The issue is
whether or not it IS a poem -- as I
have outlined it.
Don't you agree that if you could find poems
composed as you say this one is, it would
support your contention about how this one was
composed?
I'm sure that there were.  But poems of
the day following this pattern would appeal,
and make sense, only to a small highly-
educated coterie, who shared private
knowledge (e.g. about nicknames).
So we are talking only about aristocrats,
and to poetry written by other aristocrats.
(Jokes about high-status people would
not be tolerated if they came from lower-
class ones.)  The likelihood that any of
this was printed or survived is remote.
Nice dodge.
However, all aspects of the humour that
I point out in these Sonnets is very well-
known -- puns, sarcasm, irony, double-
entendres, plays on personal names and
characteristics. The combination and
intensity that we see in the Sonnets is
necessarily unusual, but you take care
never to say of any particular instance
that it is, in principle, unprecedented.
I take care to say that no poem uses irony that is not
set up thewas you say this one does. I take care to
point out similar facts. I don't take care to say a puns
are unprecedted in sonnets because that's as
irrelevant as the statement that words generally show
up in sonnets.

You are SO crazy, Paul.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You ask for a precedent for Shakespeare's
becoming a great writer although having
(according to you) illiterate parents;
Wrong.  I ask for the name of ANY
writer (terrible to great) who was brought
up in an illiterate household.  (And no
sane person claims the Stratman did.)
My point is that asking for precedents is something
you do, so why can't I? As you do by asking for the
name of a person from an illiterate household--or
do you really believe you weren't asking for a
precedent--some person who became a great
writer despite having come from an illiterate
household?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
why can't I ask for a precedent for this kind of
poem, and deem it unlikely if you can't find one?
I can give simple obvious reasons why
such poems would rarely have survived
from the Elizabethan (or earlier) aristocracy.
You can't give any remotely plausible
reason why (in your view) the Stratman
was the only writer in all time who grew
up in an illiterate household.
The point is that asking for precedents is a legitimate
way of arguing against a position.
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
The test of whether the ball falls inside
or outside the line is objective enough.
So are the tests of whether or not an
explanation matches the words of a
Sonnet and the facts of an historical
episode.
Those tests require someone sane to carry
them out.
It would be VERY EASY to show
the mismatch (a) between my reading
and the words of the Sonnet, and
(b) between my reading and the facts
of the history -- IF there was any such
mismatch.
You haven't. Neither has any Strat or
quasi-Strat.
Then why hasn't the world at large accepted your
reading?
These things take time.  When most
Oxfordians are lost in PT nonsense,
nothing is going to move fast.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Name one other theory that no one could
so much as present an argument against that
remained for more than five years rejected by
EVERYONE except its author?
It's not even been properly articulated
yet.  And who has rejected it?  You
can't even consider it, finding puns
and ambiguity too much to take,
Paul.
Wow, now I have not only failed to argue
against it, I haven't even rejected it! Can you
REALLY believe that, Paul?

--Bob
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-25 21:58:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I missed this delayed comeback of Paul's when it
appeared several days ago--and have been out of sorts
of late, so would not have wanted to deal with it, anyway.
I still feel lousy, and have real work to do--ironically, I'm
preparing a two-hour presentation on how to appreciate
Shakespeare's Sonnet 18, and poems in general that
I'm supposed to give this coming Friday.  I'm having
trouble getting into it, so hoping that skirmishing with
Paul might wake me up.
I said, "All poems have some literal meaning."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
And this is a Matter of Faith.
AMusing how every opinion I have that Paul disagrees
with must be a "matter of faith," even though the
opinion expresses no belief in anything that breaks
any law of nature.  For some reason Paul needs his
opponents to be more than merely mistaken; they
have to be without any evidence for their positions,
and incapable of mounting an argument in defense
of them.  Yet, incredibly, in spite of how totally
incompetent his opponents are, the number of
followers Pual has gathered in his more than a
decade of advancing his views on the sonnets
equals . . . zero.  I wager that he has not even
persuaded anyone that his views are worth
listening to--for their insights into the sonnets;
they are certainly worth listening to for what they
reveal of the workings of a lunatic's mind.
value
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Well, to pull a Crowley on you, let me ask you
why you can't give me a single example of a
poem that does not have a literal meaning.
    'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
    And the mome raths outgrabe.
A good example of the workings of a
gotta-win-every-step-of-a-debate-however-trivial
psychotic.  Challenged to find a poem
without a literal meaning, which he can't do,
he spends four days scouring his brain for a
way out.  As always, he finds one.  Take the
challenge to mean no more than it explicitly
says--instead of what it obviously is intended
to mean, to wit: "Find a SERIOUS poem
without a literal meaning--or, really, since
there are exceptions to just about every rule,
find enough such poems to demonstrate
that less than 99.99% of serious poems have
a literal meaning."
Actually, his way out, is ineffective, though
remarkably ingenious--and probably would have
worked on just about anyone but me (a person
who has practiced close readings of difficult work
for many years)--because it seems to meet
the challenge.  It doesn't.  The poem has a
    'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
It was brilliantly light, and the slithery, silky,
lithe toads with a resemblance to doves
whirled in spirals and gamboled nimbly in the
marshland (WASTEland) waves
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
Present were some sort of burrowing gophers--
toughed with sentimental, tottery (flimsly),
extremely unimportant (MiniMal) whimsy
    And the mome raths outgrabe.
And the brief (MOMEntary), foam-frivoloous
raths, a kind of very harmless rat, the
harsh disposition of the normal rat being reduced in
them the way the sound of a hard "t" is reduced by
putting an "h" next to it, grazed away from the
serence seen (out of it)
You were unable to find this literal meaning because
of all its word-play, most of it dependendt on puns,
which are alien to an Irishman like yourself.
Seriously, Paul, the poem definitely literally sets up
a silly scene.  It uses portmanteau words to suggest
meanings poetically rather than directly represent them,
but they still present a scene.  And there's no secondary
description for us to decode them into.
Carroll defined his words, by the way.  Seehttp://www.waxdog.com/jabberwocky/def.html.  His
definitions are only possible ones, though--as he
himself suggests by giving us Humpty Dumpty's
definitions.  His point surely being that it is up
to a given reader to interpret them by their sounds'
connotations.  A fully correct paraphrase is
possible, though: simply repeating the words
of the text, which literally mean exactly what they
say--that we're with slithy toves in a brillig time, etc.
Thanks for the post, Paul.  Getting into it has put me
in a good mood for the first time a several days.
Explicating poems (or stanzas of poems) is fun for
me--especially important ones.
Oh freddled gruntbuggly
thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.
    Groop I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes.
And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,
    Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts
with my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!"
Here you demonstrate that nonsense is not poetry.  It
is an interesting question in poetics as to how to
distinguish nonsense from literature.  I don't have
time to go into it at any length, but will merely say
that, for me, a text is nonsense, if after a generation
or so, no one has been able to make a paraphrase of
it that a consensus of knowledgeable observers
agree is reasonable--even if not indisputably valid.
As mine is of the Carroll passage.  Your composition
could probably be given some such interpretation but
I've made my point with the Carroll stanza--though, of
course, you won't accept that I have.
In which case, pray tell me what's there if not a
literal meaning.  If no meaning, it is not a poem.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Since poems are made up of words and since
words have literal meanings, I can scarcely
understand how a poem can fail to have some
kind of literal meaning.
The notion that "all words have literal
meanings" could only be articulated by
a child, or someone whose thinking
is childish.  
You fail to counter my childish statement.  You
fail to show how a word has no literal meaning,
nor how, if it does, that would not confer some kind
of meaning in any text that it appears in.  One needs
to go back to the most obivous truths sometimes
when arguing with a wack.
Look up the word 'literal'
and see that each of its definitions
has an opposite, and that words fit
that case.
I don't know what you're talking about.  "Literal" means
"verbatim, actual."  All poems have some sort of explicit,
actual meaning.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Of course, only
you believe the poem requires maturity.
Surely, I meant, "does not require maturity."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Although if it has what you think it does,
it has the most incredible mix of immaturity
and maturity I know of.
State one undeniable item of evidence
that shows the poet was over, say, 21.
Show one that shows he was not.
There are no words, phrases or expressions
that would indicate (say) experience of
foreign travel, or knowledge of a profession,
or a university degree, or parenthood, or
marriage.  Which is not to say that this
poet was extraordinarily precocious.
Show one item that shows he was NOT mature.
Of course, the exercise is idiotically valueless
since entirely subjective.  I say, for instance,
that only a mature poet could organize a poem
this well, only a mature poet do the number of
things this one does with the sound of words
so effectively, only a muture poets could compose
so wonderfully simple but deep a poem.  You
merely subjectively assert that the poet doesn't
do what I say he does, and that an child (of genius)
could do what he does do, in your subjective view--
which you subjectively assert must be accepted
as valid since it is YOUR view.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
This is
stupid, Paul.  Natuarlly, I think that the
skill of the versification, the logic of
the design of the poem, the lack of
any kind of unbalance, the "temperance"
of the style, the seeming fairly long
immersion in the sonnet tradition (i.e.,
this sonnet is beautifully part of the
sonnet tradition, flowing naturally out
of it, which indicates its author has
been exposed to a lot of sonnets,
and thought about them deeply and
maturely). the lack of showboating
(no big words, no fancy matephors,
no clever twists of theme), and much
else indicates the poet was at least 22,
and certainly older than 18.  That he
never bettered it, supports this.
If you accept that the poet could have
been 18 or 19 then we have no real
argument.  Prior to analysing it and
identifying its topics, I certainly would
have assumed an older poet. But we
are talking about a poetic genius,
and should not be too surprised to
discover that he was astonishingly
precocious.
I'm saying if he was "only" 18, he was,
yes, astonishingly precocious.  It's possible.
It is ofcourse possible he was only 2.  But
precedent needs to be taken into
consideration.  Chatteron wrote some
poems at the age of 17 that were perhaps
as good as those of many second-level poets
(minor poets, still read), but this poem is
much better than anything he wrote then.
Another problem is that this poem is among
the very best of any of Shakespeare's sonnets.
It's hard to compare it to his plays, but I can't see
that it's much below the level of the best poetry
in his plays.  It's hard for me to believe he could
have written a poem like this one at 18 and then not
improved--the way he improved from Titus to Two
Gentlemen to Twelfth Night.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Meanwhile, you simply think everything
in the poem inidcates immaturity.  So
where are we?  Its your opinion against mine.
What, then, is the point of discussing it?
You raised it as a serious objection.
But you can find nothing to support
that objection.
What is the point in discussing it if I sincerely
believe I've supported my objection and you
don't?  How can I support my objection if
you refuse to accept that I've done so?  And
just what have you done to support your belief
that Shakespeare was--you said 16 or younger,
though 19 would now be all right for you?  You
haven't even shown marks of immaturity in the
poem, only the absence of silly indications of
maturity.
I just thought of another indication, for me, of
maturity--the focus on the friend or loved one
not for a great body or terrific smile but for
a temperate disposition.  Also a rather mature
understanding of the brevity of the best things
in life--though one can be quite young and
have that understanding.  One, in fact, can
be very mature about some things as a child.
Exactly what maturity is and how to identify it
in someone's writings would be extremely difficult
to determine--for anyone but a super-genius like you.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Yikes, now you aren't even claiming I can't argue
with your insanity, you're claiming I can't even
DISCUSS it!  What do you think all the words
I wrote about you moronic "summers day" "pun"
were?
You have written very few words on
my 'moronic "summers day" "pun" '
-- all you say is that you don't like it
-- and also note how you not got
beyond the first line.
?????
You really can't remember all the times I've talked about
what's wrong with it?  For instance, "die" means have
an orgasm, not someone who has been copulated with.
You can't remember all I've said about tonal decorum?
You haven't checked all my posts after the one in which,
apparently, I noted how I had not gotten past the first line?
In one fairly recent post I discussed your paraphrase of the
first four lines--and even granted that it was not entirely
implausible.  You were going to continue but haven't yet.
Nonetheless, I've discussed several of my problems with
other things you've said about what the poem means.
What can I do except say you're wrong?  I know, direct you
to my posts.  But, Paul, I claim I've done that already to no
avail.  Why can't you assume that I really believe I have.
Even if I haven't, why then should I take the trouble to
find these posts and tell you where they are.  And it would
be trouble--at least for me.  Especially since you've removed
interpretations of yours I would have searched for.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
In the first place, it doesn't say "you are more
loving"; it says, "you are more lovely."
If you had ever studied Sonnet 18 you
would know that 'lovely' could mean
'loving' in Elizabethan English.
You can always find some rare usage for a word,
Wrong. In any case, this was far from
rare. It was, in fact, the original sense
of the word; it appears in Shake-speare,
and this sense continued well into the
17th century
'LOVELY' (OED)
1. a. Loving, kind, affectionate. Obs.
c1400 Laud Troy Bk. 565 And welcomed hem with louely chere.
1533 9 T. St. Aubyn in Lisle Papers XIII. 96 (MS.) With much
hearty and lovely recommendations.
1602 Narcissus (1893) 129 Wee are . . . the kings owne lovely
subiects.
OBSOLETE, almost certainly rare by
Shakespeare's time.
It is obsolete TODAY -- and was in the
20th century.  The OED gives examples
of uses 40 and more years after this
Sonnet was written.  This sense was
certainly common enough for the poet
to use with a sense of punning irony.
I went in to give into you on this.  Except for
the irony, which is not there--because there
is nothing in the poem to indicate it would be there.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
b. Amorous. Obs.
1587 M. Grove Pelops & Hipp. (1878) 74 The letter of a friend of
a wounded Louer, . . . to disswade him from this louelie follie.
1592 Lyly Midas iii. iii, Amerula, another tale or none, this is too
louely. Sua. Nay let me heare anie woman tell a tale of x lines long
without it tend to love, and I will [etc.].
1599 Shakes. etc. Pass. Pilgr. iv, Sweet Cytherea . . . Did court
the Lad with many a louely looke.
c. Friendly, amicable. Obs. (? Sc.)
a1649 Drummond of Hawthornden Hist. Scot. (1655) 12
After lovely advice at the Council-Table . . . he was freely dismist.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And there's no reason whatever for the poet to
say "lovely" if he meant "loving."
God help us. The poet was aiming
at AMBIGUITY. He was ALSO writing
about the weather (or pretending to).
That could be 'lovely', but hardly 'loving'.
Well, actually, one could easily poeticize the sun
as loving, or a soothing breeze as loving.
I would concede, after your extra quotations from
the time, that "lovely" could mean "loving," but it
must also mean "beautiful."  And this is NOT
ambiguity, this is simply a combination of two
compatible meanings.
Ridiculous.  There would be no point
whatever to the poet intending "a
combination of two compatible
meanings" in this context.
No point in using one word to tell someone
she was both beautiful and loving?  Good grief.
Doing that kind of thing is practically the
essence of being a poet.
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
The wacks all think they have the context. But
you don't need any context, just the words of
the poem.
Eh? This is a new and distinctively
Grummanian doctrine.
Eh?  Actually, it's been my main argument all
along: the poem is about what it says it is, not
something needing an external context to
understand.
  "You don't need any context, just the
   words of the poem."
If a poem can't stand on its own (in its own time
\for those fluent in its language), it is a failure.  This
is no eccentric belief but it the main axiom, as I
understand it, of the New Critics, who were the
last literary critics of poetry.
Context can help clarify but shouldn't be needed, or
needed much.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You alternate between agreeing that it's
there and saying it is not.
Not so. I merely deny your philosophy
of poetry that says (in effect) there can
be only ONE meaning in a poem and
it must be possible set that out in a
simple literal manner.
I do not believe that.  My book Of Manywhere-at-Once
is about my belief that the best poems are
those that put a person into more than one
significant part of his brain at once--generally
through the use of metaphor, although there
are other ways a poem can do this, most
of them having to do with a poem's having
connotations and/or symbolic meanings, etc.
I believe Sonnet 18 does this auditorally--it
gradually puts a sensitive reader into a
visual experience of a summers day and
into a kind of block of music, that is a secondary
representation of a summer's day.
There's much more to it.  My book will go
into in detail.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shame no one will ever read it.
Well, a few will; a few already have read parts of it.
If you weren';t a coward, you would also write a
book on a sonnet, or all of them, or on poetry, and
self-publish it as I hope to self-publish my book.  You
can do so very inexpensively.  And you would have one
purchaser, at least, assuming I'm still alive--and can
afford it.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
BUT the poet also had in mind the
overnight 30-mile horse-back ride,
often at a gallop, that Mary made from
Edinburgh to Dunbar, on escaping from
Ruthven and his gang a day later.
This is so absurd, Paul. Where are the horses
in the poem? You're just arbitrarily connecting
everything you can to your fixation on Elizabeth
and her times.
Ridiculous. The murder of Riccio (by
Darnley, Ruthven, and others) took place
in the private dining room of Mary QS,
and her escape and overnight flight from
the gang was only a few hours later.
It was all one brief episode, the story
of which was well-known to the English
court.
So, all the poet had to do was say "rough winds"
and a reader could be expected to think of this
whole story (with delight at how cleverly the poet
expressed it, no doubt).
There was no "a reader".  There was
'the reader' i.e. Elizabeth.  A few other
courtiers probably also saw the poem.
It was, in effect, the same system as
had prevailed in all European and other
countries since the beginning of time --
that of patronage.  These poems were
not written for a mass readership (as
Strats idiotically believe, and have to
believe).  They were written for those
in power -- above all, the monarch.
Don't you agree that most poems are written for
more than a few people, Paul?  And if these poems
were written for Lizzie only, or almost only, why
did Meres refer to them as privately-circulated
among his friends?  Why were some of them
published before 1609?
Why did the poet say they'd last forever if he
didn't expect more than a handful of people to
read them?
That audience was highly educated,
knew what was going on, and talked
with the poet about current issues.
He would have reflected their own
opinions, attitudes, jokes and puns
in his poetry.  The monarch would
have known exactly what the poet
was talking about.
Who else was writing poems telling her what
she already knew?  Surely others were, and
you can use their poems to show how common
the practice was.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
That you believe
that means I must not be able to grasp
the concept of ambiguity is further evidence
of your extreme irrationality.
See (a) above for a classic example of
your inability to grasp the concept
You say ambiguity is used here, I disagree; ergo,
I am incapable of graspong what ambiguity is.
Nope.  I say that Term X means 'X1'.
Later I say it also means 'X2'.  You
protest, claiming that I said it meant
'X1', and not 'X2', and therefore I am
contradicting myself.
This happens time and time and time
again -- as it does generally with ignorant
Strats and quasi-Strats.
I said there was no ambiguity where you said it was.
You then did not say I was wrong, you said I
was incapable of grasping what ambiguity was.
In other words, all I have to do is disagree with
you about some X once to prove I don't know
what X means.  Your "X1" and "X2" have nothing
to do with this--or, if they do, you need to explain how.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And there's no reason whatever for the poet to
say "lovely" if he meant "loving."
And see (b) below for another.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
For you, the sonnet says Ruthven is
shaking Mary, and Darnley has lost patience
concerning Riccio.
The line is full of ambiguity (that
concept you find so mysterious) but
the main theme is (a) Darnley shakes
Mary -- in their rough sexual windings;
It can't mean that because the rough winds that
shake Mary equal Ruthven.
The most important sense of the line
IMO is the rough windings of Darnley
and Mary in their sexual embrace.
(Remember that 'wind' in the sense
of air moving -- e.g 'southerly wind'
was pronounced to rhyme with 'mind'
and so was identical (if not with the
same meaning) to the word that forms
the first part of 'winding' -- as in a coiled
spring.)
A secondary (IMHO) sense was the
macaronic pun on "Ruth-ven" where
'Ruth' is rough. and 'ven' is wind.
A Joycean pun.  What other poet ever used one?
Macaronic puns are as old as language.
Do give me an example of a poet of
Shakespeare's time who used a pun that
mixed words from two different languages, as
Joyce often did in Finnegans Wake.  Make
that two different languages others than English.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And you have both Darnley and Ruthven shaking
Mary's boobs.  Charming.
The whole point is that at this moment
Mary QS was a figure of fun in the
English court -- especially for Elizabeth.
Can you give any evidence of that?  Raleigh
dressing up as her and shaking his faked breasts,
for instance?  Some poem that explicitly makes
fun of Mary?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
The use of a word or phrase in two or
more senses employs what is known
as 'ambiguity'.
Only if they're contradictory.
Where the heck do you get THIS rule
from?
Hmmm, you're right.  I never checked on the
meaning of it, assuming it was a useful term.
If it only means a text with more than one meaning,
it is clearly useless.
Another reason for my thinking it had to mean
a text that suggests two contradictory things
about its referent, is that that is where it comes
up in serious poetry: Blake's Songs of Innocence
are a good example: are they ironic or innocent?
SOme of them are so naive they seem to many
to have to be ironic, but others could be sincere
expressions of Christian belief.  And Blake was
a nut.  Ergo, we can't be sure how to take them--
their tone is ambiguous.
It would seem idiotic to take "lovely" in Sonnet 18
as ambiguous if we allow it to mean loving, because
there's no reason whatever that it could not mean
lovely and loving at the same time.  In other words,
it would have double meaning, but that double meaning
would be clear.
Now we need a word to means "having two or more
conflicting meanings."  Because that is very much
different from simply have tow or more meanings.
Certainly contrast helps -- but it's
hardly essential.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And they should be
contradictory for some poetic reason.  Here you
having Darnley screwing Mary and Ruthven
agitating her by murdering someone.  Meanwhile,
rough winds are shaking early summer buds.
What a poetically moving combination.
The poet is superficially a comment on
the weather.  But, in reality, it carries all
sorts of subversive meanings in glorious
contrast with the banal image of buds on
trees and bushes in May (in fact, there
are relatively few buds in May -- all buds
are out and finished now in London --
i.e. in mid-April after a very cold winter).
You are free to contemplate whichever
of the 'conflicting' images you prefer.
"April" does not rhyme with "day."
The cluster of images you propose seems
ridiculous to me.  And, as I keep saying,
poets have been writing about buds in May or
the equivalent for thousands of years, banal
as they are to you.  It's kind of human to be
glad winter is over, and crops with be able to
be grown.  Believe it or not, one of the main
rites in all religions I know about celebrate
the coming of spring.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
 I appreciate that
you have never encountered it before.
Or, if you have, you cannot remember
it, since it is so foreign to your culture.
Weird, that in spite of my defects, I have written
for reference books about poetry
Shame no one has read them
Hey, do let me know how you ascertained this.
I'd love to find out exactly how many have.  Of course,
I know that you can't be correct: I have suggestions for
changes from editors concerning all of them, which seem
to me proof that the editors read my pieces.  I have
e.mails from others who read them after they were published,
and quoted parts of them.
But even if no one does read them, and I'm sure few do, it is
still weird that someone as ignorant of poetry as you think I
am would be asekd, and paid, to write entries on the subject
for reference books (Schirmner's and Facts-on-Files are the
publishers of two of them--no big deal, but they are
mainstream publishers).
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
The poet did not need to tell a story
to Elizabeth. Everyone in the English
court knew it.
Why bother with a poem about it, then?
He was not reporting facts about
events. He was analysing the political
situation, as well as making comments
to amuse.
Analyzing it?!!  How?  By pointing out that Mary
was a nymphomaniac, and Darnley a cad and
brute, and Ruthven rough?  Some analysis.
It was pretty accurate.  Remember that
the news these events had just arrived.
WHere's the analysis?  How was Lizzie to use the data?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I'm shocked Elizabeth didn't replace Burghley at
once with the sixteen-year-old demigod,
Burghley, Elizabeth, Oxford, and the
rest of the court were pretty much of
one mind about Mary QS and these
events.
Then what need for these poems of Eddy's?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
say that in my experience of poetry, I've never
come across a poem that does what you say
this one does, nor in my experience as a poet
have I ever thought to compose a poem like it.
That does not matter. The issue is
whether or not it IS a poem -- as I
have outlined it.
Don't you agree that if you could find poems
composed as you say this one is, it would
support your contention about how this one was
composed?
I'm sure that there were.  But poems of
the day following this pattern would appeal,
and make sense, only to a small highly-
educated coterie, who shared private
knowledge (e.g. about nicknames).
So we are talking only about aristocrats,
and to poetry written by other aristocrats.
(Jokes about high-status people would
not be tolerated if they came from lower-
class ones.)  The likelihood that any of
this was printed or survived is remote.
Nice dodge.
However, all aspects of the humour that
I point out in these Sonnets is very well-
known -- puns, sarcasm, irony, double-
entendres, plays on personal names and
characteristics. The combination and
intensity that we see in the Sonnets is
necessarily unusual, but you take care
never to say of any particular instance
that it is, in principle, unprecedented.
I take care to say that no poem uses irony that is not
set up thewas you say this one does.  I take care to
point out similar facts.  I don't take care to say a puns
are unprecedted in sonnets because that's as
irrelevant as the statement that words generally show
up in sonnets.
You are SO crazy, Paul.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You ask for a precedent for Shakespeare's
becoming a great writer although having
(according to you) illiterate parents;
Wrong.  I ask for the name of ANY
writer (terrible to great) who was brought
up in an illiterate household.  (And no
sane person claims the Stratman did.)
My point is that asking for precedents is something
you do, so why can't I?  As you do by asking for the
name of a person from an illiterate household--or
do you really believe you weren't asking for a
precedent--some person who became a great
writer despite having come from an illiterate
household?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
why can't I ask for a precedent for this kind of
poem, and deem it unlikely if you can't find one?
I can give simple obvious reasons why
such poems would rarely have survived
from the Elizabethan (or earlier) aristocracy.
You can't give any remotely plausible
reason why (in your view) the Stratman
was the only writer in all time who grew
up in an illiterate household.
The point is that asking for precedents is a legitimate
way of arguing against a position.
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
The test of whether the ball falls inside
or outside the line is objective enough.
So are the tests of whether or not an
explanation matches the words of a
Sonnet and the facts of an historical
episode.
Those tests require someone sane to carry
them out.
It would be VERY EASY to show
the mismatch (a) between my reading
and the words of the Sonnet, and
(b) between my reading and the facts
of the history -- IF there was any such
mismatch.
You haven't. Neither has any Strat or
quasi-Strat.
Then why hasn't the world at large accepted your
reading?
These things take time.  When most
Oxfordians are lost in PT nonsense,
nothing is going to move fast.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Name one other theory that no one could
so much as present an argument against that
remained for more than five years rejected by
EVERYONE except its author?
It's not even been properly articulated
yet.  And who has rejected it?  You
can't even consider it, finding puns
and ambiguity too much to take,
Paul.
Wow, now I have not only failed to argue
against it, I haven't even rejected it!  Can you
REALLY believe that, Paul?
--Bob
Peter Groves
2010-04-25 23:37:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I missed this delayed comeback of Paul's when it
appeared several days ago--and have been out of sorts
of late, so would not have wanted to deal with it, anyway.
I still feel lousy, and have real work to do--ironically, I'm
preparing a two-hour presentation on how to appreciate
Shakespeare's Sonnet 18, and poems in general that
I'm supposed to give this coming Friday.  I'm having
trouble getting into it, so hoping that skirmishing with
Paul might wake me up.
I said, "All poems have some literal meaning."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
And this is a Matter of Faith.
AMusing how every opinion I have that Paul disagrees
with must be a "matter of faith," even though the
opinion expresses no belief in anything that breaks
any law of nature.  For some reason Paul needs his
opponents to be more than merely mistaken; they
have to be without any evidence for their positions,
and incapable of mounting an argument in defense
of them.  Yet, incredibly, in spite of how totally
incompetent his opponents are, the number of
followers Pual has gathered in his more than a
decade of advancing his views on the sonnets
equals . . . zero.  I wager that he has not even
persuaded anyone that his views are worth
listening to--for their insights into the sonnets;
they are certainly worth listening to for what they
reveal of the workings of a lunatic's mind.
value
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Well, to pull a Crowley on you, let me ask you
why you can't give me a single example of a
poem that does not have a literal meaning.
    'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
    And the mome raths outgrabe.
A good example of the workings of a
gotta-win-every-step-of-a-debate-however-trivial
psychotic.  Challenged to find a poem
without a literal meaning, which he can't do,
he spends four days scouring his brain for a
way out.  As always, he finds one.  Take the
challenge to mean no more than it explicitly
says--instead of what it obviously is intended
to mean, to wit: "Find a SERIOUS poem
without a literal meaning--or, really, since
there are exceptions to just about every rule,
find enough such poems to demonstrate
that less than 99.99% of serious poems have
a literal meaning."
Actually, his way out, is ineffective, though
remarkably ingenious--and probably would have
worked on just about anyone but me (a person
who has practiced close readings of difficult work
for many years)--because it seems to meet
the challenge.  It doesn't.  The poem has a
    'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
It was brilliantly light, and the slithery, silky,
lithe toads with a resemblance to doves
whirled in spirals and gamboled nimbly in the
marshland (WASTEland) waves
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
Present were some sort of burrowing gophers--
toughed with sentimental, tottery (flimsly),
extremely unimportant (MiniMal) whimsy
    And the mome raths outgrabe.
And the brief (MOMEntary), foam-frivoloous
raths, a kind of very harmless rat, the
harsh disposition of the normal rat being reduced in
them the way the sound of a hard "t" is reduced by
putting an "h" next to it, grazed away from the
serence seen (out of it)
You were unable to find this literal meaning because
of all its word-play, most of it dependendt on puns,
which are alien to an Irishman like yourself.
Bob, I loved this reading of stanza 1 of Jabberwocky -- I might use it
with my students (with proper attribution). You've just neatly
illustrated the difference between someone who recognizes and responds
to poetry and someone (like Crowley) who doesn't and can't.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Oh freddled gruntbuggly
thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.
    Groop I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes.
And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,
    Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts
with my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!"
Here you demonstrate that nonsense is not poetry.  It
is an interesting question in poetics as to how to
distinguish nonsense from literature.  I don't have
time to go into it at any length, but will merely say
that, for me, a text is nonsense, if after a generation
or so, no one has been able to make a paraphrase of
it that a consensus of knowledgeable observers
agree is reasonable--even if not indisputably valid.
As mine is of the Carroll passage.  Your composition
It's far too imaginative for Crowley. It's from Douglas Adams's "The
Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy", and is supposed to be an example
of the second-worst kind of poetry in the entire universe.



Peter G.
The Historian
2010-04-26 00:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Groves
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I missed this delayed comeback of Paul's when it
appeared several days ago--and have been out of sorts
of late, so would not have wanted to deal with it, anyway.
I still feel lousy, and have real work to do--ironically, I'm
preparing a two-hour presentation on how to appreciate
Shakespeare's Sonnet 18, and poems in general that
I'm supposed to give this coming Friday.  I'm having
trouble getting into it, so hoping that skirmishing with
Paul might wake me up.
I said, "All poems have some literal meaning."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
And this is a Matter of Faith.
AMusing how every opinion I have that Paul disagrees
with must be a "matter of faith," even though the
opinion expresses no belief in anything that breaks
any law of nature.  For some reason Paul needs his
opponents to be more than merely mistaken; they
have to be without any evidence for their positions,
and incapable of mounting an argument in defense
of them.  Yet, incredibly, in spite of how totally
incompetent his opponents are, the number of
followers Pual has gathered in his more than a
decade of advancing his views on the sonnets
equals . . . zero.  I wager that he has not even
persuaded anyone that his views are worth
listening to--for their insights into the sonnets;
they are certainly worth listening to for what they
reveal of the workings of a lunatic's mind.
value
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Well, to pull a Crowley on you, let me ask you
why you can't give me a single example of a
poem that does not have a literal meaning.
    'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
    And the mome raths outgrabe.
A good example of the workings of a
gotta-win-every-step-of-a-debate-however-trivial
psychotic.  Challenged to find a poem
without a literal meaning, which he can't do,
he spends four days scouring his brain for a
way out.  As always, he finds one.  Take the
challenge to mean no more than it explicitly
says--instead of what it obviously is intended
to mean, to wit: "Find a SERIOUS poem
without a literal meaning--or, really, since
there are exceptions to just about every rule,
find enough such poems to demonstrate
that less than 99.99% of serious poems have
a literal meaning."
Actually, his way out, is ineffective, though
remarkably ingenious--and probably would have
worked on just about anyone but me (a person
who has practiced close readings of difficult work
for many years)--because it seems to meet
the challenge.  It doesn't.  The poem has a
    'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
It was brilliantly light, and the slithery, silky,
lithe toads with a resemblance to doves
whirled in spirals and gamboled nimbly in the
marshland (WASTEland) waves
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
Present were some sort of burrowing gophers--
toughed with sentimental, tottery (flimsly),
extremely unimportant (MiniMal) whimsy
    And the mome raths outgrabe.
And the brief (MOMEntary), foam-frivoloous
raths, a kind of very harmless rat, the
harsh disposition of the normal rat being reduced in
them the way the sound of a hard "t" is reduced by
putting an "h" next to it, grazed away from the
serence seen (out of it)
You were unable to find this literal meaning because
of all its word-play, most of it dependendt on puns,
which are alien to an Irishman like yourself.
Bob, I loved this reading of stanza 1 of Jabberwocky -- I might use it
with my students (with proper attribution).  You've just neatly
illustrated the difference between someone who recognizes and responds
to poetry and someone (like Crowley) who doesn't and can't.
Yes, it's brilliant. Now Bob should do the rest of the poem.
Post by Peter Groves
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Oh freddled gruntbuggly
thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.
    Groop I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes.
And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,
    Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts
with my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!"
Here you demonstrate that nonsense is not poetry.  It
is an interesting question in poetics as to how to
distinguish nonsense from literature.  I don't have
time to go into it at any length, but will merely say
that, for me, a text is nonsense, if after a generation
or so, no one has been able to make a paraphrase of
it that a consensus of knowledgeable observers
agree is reasonable--even if not indisputably valid.
As mine is of the Carroll passage.  Your composition
It's far too imaginative for Crowley.  It's from Douglas Adams's "The
Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy", and is supposed to be an example
of the second-worst kind of poetry in the entire universe.
Is that the infamous ode to the lump of green putty found in the
Vogon's armpit?
Peter Groves
2010-04-26 02:31:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Historian
Post by Peter Groves
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I missed this delayed comeback of Paul's when it
appeared several days ago--and have been out of sorts
of late, so would not have wanted to deal with it, anyway.
I still feel lousy, and have real work to do--ironically, I'm
preparing a two-hour presentation on how to appreciate
Shakespeare's Sonnet 18, and poems in general that
I'm supposed to give this coming Friday.  I'm having
trouble getting into it, so hoping that skirmishing with
Paul might wake me up.
I said, "All poems have some literal meaning."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
And this is a Matter of Faith.
AMusing how every opinion I have that Paul disagrees
with must be a "matter of faith," even though the
opinion expresses no belief in anything that breaks
any law of nature.  For some reason Paul needs his
opponents to be more than merely mistaken; they
have to be without any evidence for their positions,
and incapable of mounting an argument in defense
of them.  Yet, incredibly, in spite of how totally
incompetent his opponents are, the number of
followers Pual has gathered in his more than a
decade of advancing his views on the sonnets
equals . . . zero.  I wager that he has not even
persuaded anyone that his views are worth
listening to--for their insights into the sonnets;
they are certainly worth listening to for what they
reveal of the workings of a lunatic's mind.
value
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Well, to pull a Crowley on you, let me ask you
why you can't give me a single example of a
poem that does not have a literal meaning.
    'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
    And the mome raths outgrabe.
A good example of the workings of a
gotta-win-every-step-of-a-debate-however-trivial
psychotic.  Challenged to find a poem
without a literal meaning, which he can't do,
he spends four days scouring his brain for a
way out.  As always, he finds one.  Take the
challenge to mean no more than it explicitly
says--instead of what it obviously is intended
to mean, to wit: "Find a SERIOUS poem
without a literal meaning--or, really, since
there are exceptions to just about every rule,
find enough such poems to demonstrate
that less than 99.99% of serious poems have
a literal meaning."
Actually, his way out, is ineffective, though
remarkably ingenious--and probably would have
worked on just about anyone but me (a person
who has practiced close readings of difficult work
for many years)--because it seems to meet
the challenge.  It doesn't.  The poem has a
    'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
It was brilliantly light, and the slithery, silky,
lithe toads with a resemblance to doves
whirled in spirals and gamboled nimbly in the
marshland (WASTEland) waves
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
Present were some sort of burrowing gophers--
toughed with sentimental, tottery (flimsly),
extremely unimportant (MiniMal) whimsy
    And the mome raths outgrabe.
And the brief (MOMEntary), foam-frivoloous
raths, a kind of very harmless rat, the
harsh disposition of the normal rat being reduced in
them the way the sound of a hard "t" is reduced by
putting an "h" next to it, grazed away from the
serence seen (out of it)
You were unable to find this literal meaning because
of all its word-play, most of it dependendt on puns,
which are alien to an Irishman like yourself.
Bob, I loved this reading of stanza 1 of Jabberwocky -- I might use it
with my students (with proper attribution).  You've just neatly
illustrated the difference between someone who recognizes and responds
to poetry and someone (like Crowley) who doesn't and can't.
Yes, it's brilliant. Now Bob should do the rest of the poem.
Post by Peter Groves
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Oh freddled gruntbuggly
thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.
    Groop I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes.
And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,
    Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts
with my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!"
Here you demonstrate that nonsense is not poetry.  It
is an interesting question in poetics as to how to
distinguish nonsense from literature.  I don't have
time to go into it at any length, but will merely say
that, for me, a text is nonsense, if after a generation
or so, no one has been able to make a paraphrase of
it that a consensus of knowledgeable observers
agree is reasonable--even if not indisputably valid.
As mine is of the Carroll passage.  Your composition
It's far too imaginative for Crowley.  It's from Douglas Adams's "The
Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy", and is supposed to be an example
of the second-worst kind of poetry in the entire universe.
Is that the infamous ode to the lump of green putty found in the
Vogon's armpit?
The very same. The very worst poetry in the universe perished in the
destruction of Earth; it was probably in Crowley's sock-drawer.

Peter G.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-26 21:56:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Historian
Post by Peter Groves
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I missed this delayed comeback of Paul's when it
appeared several days ago--and have been out of sorts
of late, so would not have wanted to deal with it, anyway.
I still feel lousy, and have real work to do--ironically, I'm
preparing a two-hour presentation on how to appreciate
Shakespeare's Sonnet 18, and poems in general that
I'm supposed to give this coming Friday.  I'm having
trouble getting into it, so hoping that skirmishing with
Paul might wake me up.
I said, "All poems have some literal meaning."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
And this is a Matter of Faith.
AMusing how every opinion I have that Paul disagrees
with must be a "matter of faith," even though the
opinion expresses no belief in anything that breaks
any law of nature.  For some reason Paul needs his
opponents to be more than merely mistaken; they
have to be without any evidence for their positions,
and incapable of mounting an argument in defense
of them.  Yet, incredibly, in spite of how totally
incompetent his opponents are, the number of
followers Pual has gathered in his more than a
decade of advancing his views on the sonnets
equals . . . zero.  I wager that he has not even
persuaded anyone that his views are worth
listening to--for their insights into the sonnets;
they are certainly worth listening to for what they
reveal of the workings of a lunatic's mind.
value
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Well, to pull a Crowley on you, let me ask you
why you can't give me a single example of a
poem that does not have a literal meaning.
    'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
    And the mome raths outgrabe.
A good example of the workings of a
gotta-win-every-step-of-a-debate-however-trivial
psychotic.  Challenged to find a poem
without a literal meaning, which he can't do,
he spends four days scouring his brain for a
way out.  As always, he finds one.  Take the
challenge to mean no more than it explicitly
says--instead of what it obviously is intended
to mean, to wit: "Find a SERIOUS poem
without a literal meaning--or, really, since
there are exceptions to just about every rule,
find enough such poems to demonstrate
that less than 99.99% of serious poems have
a literal meaning."
Actually, his way out, is ineffective, though
remarkably ingenious--and probably would have
worked on just about anyone but me (a person
who has practiced close readings of difficult work
for many years)--because it seems to meet
the challenge.  It doesn't.  The poem has a
    'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
It was brilliantly light, and the slithery, silky,
lithe toads with a resemblance to doves
whirled in spirals and gamboled nimbly in the
marshland (WASTEland) waves
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
Present were some sort of burrowing gophers--
toughed with sentimental, tottery (flimsly),
extremely unimportant (MiniMal) whimsy
    And the mome raths outgrabe.
And the brief (MOMEntary), foam-frivoloous
raths, a kind of very harmless rat, the
harsh disposition of the normal rat being reduced in
them the way the sound of a hard "t" is reduced by
putting an "h" next to it, grazed away from the
serence seen (out of it)
You were unable to find this literal meaning because
of all its word-play, most of it dependendt on puns,
which are alien to an Irishman like yourself.
Bob, I loved this reading of stanza 1 of Jabberwocky -- I might use it
with my students (with proper attribution).  You've just neatly
illustrated the difference between someone who recognizes and responds
to poetry and someone (like Crowley) who doesn't and can't.
Yes, it's brilliant. Now Bob should do the rest of the poem.
I much appreciate the kudos from you and Peter, Iggy. Too unenergetic
to do more with the poem right now, but maybe will try later.
Post by The Historian
Post by Peter Groves
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Oh freddled gruntbuggly
thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.
    Groop I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes.
And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,
    Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts
with my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!"
Here you demonstrate that nonsense is not poetry.  It
is an interesting question in poetics as to how to
distinguish nonsense from literature.  I don't have
time to go into it at any length, but will merely say
that, for me, a text is nonsense, if after a generation
or so, no one has been able to make a paraphrase of
it that a consensus of knowledgeable observers
agree is reasonable--even if not indisputably valid.
As mine is of the Carroll passage.  Your composition
It's far too imaginative for Crowley.  It's from Douglas Adams's "The
Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy", and is supposed to be an example
of the second-worst kind of poetry in the entire universe.
Ah, so--and now I remember it. I wondered about the skill it showed--
but I tend to believe that even a Crowley might be capable of a flash
of brilliance once or twice in his lifetime.

--Bob
Dominic Hughes
2010-04-26 23:06:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Historian
Post by Peter Groves
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I missed this delayed comeback of Paul's when it
appeared several days ago--and have been out of sorts
of late, so would not have wanted to deal with it, anyway.
I still feel lousy, and have real work to do--ironically, I'm
preparing a two-hour presentation on how to appreciate
Shakespeare's Sonnet 18, and poems in general that
I'm supposed to give this coming Friday.  I'm having
trouble getting into it, so hoping that skirmishing with
Paul might wake me up.
I said, "All poems have some literal meaning."
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
And this is a Matter of Faith.
AMusing how every opinion I have that Paul disagrees
with must be a "matter of faith," even though the
opinion expresses no belief in anything that breaks
any law of nature.  For some reason Paul needs his
opponents to be more than merely mistaken; they
have to be without any evidence for their positions,
and incapable of mounting an argument in defense
of them.  Yet, incredibly, in spite of how totally
incompetent his opponents are, the number of
followers Pual has gathered in his more than a
decade of advancing his views on the sonnets
equals . . . zero.  I wager that he has not even
persuaded anyone that his views are worth
listening to--for their insights into the sonnets;
they are certainly worth listening to for what they
reveal of the workings of a lunatic's mind.
value
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Well, to pull a Crowley on you, let me ask you
why you can't give me a single example of a
poem that does not have a literal meaning.
    'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
    And the mome raths outgrabe.
A good example of the workings of a
gotta-win-every-step-of-a-debate-however-trivial
psychotic.  Challenged to find a poem
without a literal meaning, which he can't do,
he spends four days scouring his brain for a
way out.  As always, he finds one.  Take the
challenge to mean no more than it explicitly
says--instead of what it obviously is intended
to mean, to wit: "Find a SERIOUS poem
without a literal meaning--or, really, since
there are exceptions to just about every rule,
find enough such poems to demonstrate
that less than 99.99% of serious poems have
a literal meaning."
Actually, his way out, is ineffective, though
remarkably ingenious--and probably would have
worked on just about anyone but me (a person
who has practiced close readings of difficult work
for many years)--because it seems to meet
the challenge.  It doesn't.  The poem has a
    'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
It was brilliantly light, and the slithery, silky,
lithe toads with a resemblance to doves
whirled in spirals and gamboled nimbly in the
marshland (WASTEland) waves
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
Present were some sort of burrowing gophers--
toughed with sentimental, tottery (flimsly),
extremely unimportant (MiniMal) whimsy
    And the mome raths outgrabe.
And the brief (MOMEntary), foam-frivoloous
raths, a kind of very harmless rat, the
harsh disposition of the normal rat being reduced in
them the way the sound of a hard "t" is reduced by
putting an "h" next to it, grazed away from the
serence seen (out of it)
You were unable to find this literal meaning because
of all its word-play, most of it dependendt on puns,
which are alien to an Irishman like yourself.
Bob, I loved this reading of stanza 1 of Jabberwocky -- I might use it
with my students (with proper attribution).  You've just neatly
illustrated the difference between someone who recognizes and responds
to poetry and someone (like Crowley) who doesn't and can't.
Yes, it's brilliant. Now Bob should do the rest of the poem.
I much appreciate the kudos from you and Peter, Iggy.  Too unenergetic
to do more with the poem right now, but maybe will try later.
Post by The Historian
Post by Peter Groves
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Oh freddled gruntbuggly
thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.
    Groop I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes.
And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,
    Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts
with my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!"
Here you demonstrate that nonsense is not poetry.  It
is an interesting question in poetics as to how to
distinguish nonsense from literature.  I don't have
time to go into it at any length, but will merely say
that, for me, a text is nonsense, if after a generation
or so, no one has been able to make a paraphrase of
it that a consensus of knowledgeable observers
agree is reasonable--even if not indisputably valid.
As mine is of the Carroll passage.  Your composition
It's far too imaginative for Crowley.  It's from Douglas Adams's "The
Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy", and is supposed to be an example
of the second-worst kind of poetry in the entire universe.
Ah, so--and now I remember it.  I wondered about the skill it showed--
but I tend to believe that even a Crowley might be capable of a flash
of brilliance once or twice in his lifetime.
--Bob
Quite good, Mr. Grumman...and also quite appropriate that Lewis
Carroll has been brought into this discussion, as 'Alice' puts forward
a pretty concise explanation of the Crowley method:

‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,
‘it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.’

‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so
many different things.’

‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master – that’s
all.’

Dom
Paul Crowley
2010-04-26 22:16:47 UTC
Permalink
Bob Grumman wrote
(in a message that did not reach my IP)
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I missed this delayed comeback of Paul's when it
appeared several days ago--and have been out of sorts
of late, so would not have wanted to deal with it, anyway.
I still feel lousy, and have real work to do--ironically, I'm
preparing a two-hour presentation on how to appreciate
Shakespeare's Sonnet 18
And your instruction to your listeners will
be that they must first set up a paraphrase
of ultimate banality. Only then can they
possibly grasp its poetry and its beauty.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I said, "All poems have some literal meaning."
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
And this is a Matter of Faith.
AMusing how every opinion I have that Paul disagrees
with must be a "matter of faith,"
You gave no justification for this pronouncement
(or doctrine) so what else was anyone to think?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Well, to pull a Crowley on you, let me ask you
why you can't give me a single example of a
poem that does not have a literal meaning.
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
A good example of the workings of a
gotta-win-every-step-of-a-debate-however-trivial
psychotic. Challenged to find a poem
without a literal meaning, which he can't do,
he spends four days scouring his brain for a
way out.
The huge delay of 'four days' was entirely
because I was busy doing other things.
And the 'scouring' was looking up 'nonsense
verse'.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
As always, he finds one. Take the
challenge to mean no more than it explicitly
says--instead of what it obviously is intended
to mean, to wit: "Find a SERIOUS poem
without a literal meaning--
Not the challenge in any case. You maintain
that all ('serious') poems must have ONE
simple literal meaning that can be paraphrased
in banal terms. I say that a poem can (and
most good ones do) have several different
meanings (often operating at quite different
levels) and that these meanings often interact
and interweave in so complex a manner that
a paraphrase would either be impossible or
next to impossible; and that when a person
asks for a paraphrase of such a poem (or,
indeed, insists on one, he has no idea as to
its nature, and little concept of nature of
poetry in general,.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
or, really, since
there are exceptions to just about every rule,
find enough such poems to demonstrate
that less than 99.99% of serious poems have
a literal meaning."
Actually, his way out, is ineffective, though
remarkably ingenious--and probably would have
worked on just about anyone but me (a person
who has practiced close readings of difficult work
for many years)--because it seems to meet
the challenge. It doesn't. The poem has a
Post by Paul Crowley
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
It was brilliantly light, and the slithery, silky,
lithe toads with a resemblance to doves
My 'scouring' was so brief (and my ignorance
so great) that I did not check on the meaning
of the poem, or realise that it had one. But
I see it does.

And THAT assists my argument. Jabberwocky
has long been acknowledged as a fine poem,
or at least it has generally been granted that it
has much superficial attractiveness. Children
love it. It has much similarity to Sonnet 18 and
to many of the other Sonnets. Lewis Carroll
crafted a work with rhythm, rhyme and metre,
which appears to say something, but (at first
glance) appears nonsensical. We can see
that he is saying _something_ but we don't
know what.

That is close to the method Shake-speare used.
He wrote about one subject while pretending to
write on another. Sonnet 18 is all about Mary
QS, Darnley, et al, but he pretends that it is
about the weather. In fact, most or all of what
he says about the weather is nonsensical, or
at least utterly banal. It is 'nonsense' of a
roughly similar kind to that in Jabberwocky.
(Only ultimate fools really think that it is all
about the weather, whereas even they can see
that Carroll uses unknown words in his poem.)
However, we can sense that the poet is saying
something. We don't know what. And, in many
ways, we do not need to know. Children love
Jabberwocky as we love Sonnet 18.

But, if we want to understand the poet's method,
and how he achieved his ends, we study the text
as you do here for Jabberwocky, or as I do for
Sonnet 18.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
whirled in spirals and gamboled nimbly in the
marshland (WASTEland) waves
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Oh freddled gruntbuggly
thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.
Groop I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes.
And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,
Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts
with my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!"
Here you demonstrate that nonsense is not poetry.
I agree.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
It is an interesting question in poetics as to how to
distinguish nonsense from literature.
This 'poem' contains no meaning -- or, if
some, very little. It is saying little or nothing.
It is not language.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I don't have
time to go into it at any length, but will merely say
that, for me, a text is nonsense, if after a generation
or so, no one has been able to make a paraphrase of
it that a consensus of knowledgeable observers
agree is reasonable
One generation is far too short. Sixteen may not
be enough. Since ~1600 the 'literary world' has
been ruled by 'Peter Groves' types -- people
starting from an essentially Puritan stance, who
thought they knew all there was to know about
everything, but who were quite ignorant of all
preceding history and literature. One cause
was printing. Classical works came into the
hands of those who had no tradition of learning,
but who could read (if without understanding).
In some cases, they had power and religious
certainty, and no one was inclined to try to
correct them. Those few with real education
quietly or secretly laughed at the 'new
academics', in effect, giving up. But what else
were they to do? So we have generation after
generation of brain-dead Groveses, each in turn
poisoning the minds of the next.

[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You fail to counter my childish statement. You
fail to show how a word has no literal meaning,
nor how, if it does, that would not confer some kind
of meaning in any text that it appears in. One needs
to go back to the most obivous truths sometimes
when arguing with a wack.
As I have said before, a sentence of seven
words, each with two meanings, will have
2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 meanings (i.e 128
meanings) in total. Would you write out
128 sentences of banality?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
If you accept that the poet could have
been 18 or 19 then we have no real
argument. Prior to analysing it and
identifying its topics, I certainly would
have assumed an older poet. But we
are talking about a poetic genius,
and should not be too surprised to
discover that he was astonishingly
precocious.
I'm saying if he was "only" 18, he was,
yes, astonishingly precocious. It's possible.
It is ofcourse possible he was only 2.
No, it is not possible that he was only 2.
16 is just about possible for the guy who
we all agree turned into 'Shake-speare'.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
But
precedent needs to be taken into
consideration. Chatteron wrote some
poems at the age of 17 that were perhaps
as good as those of many second-level poets
(minor poets, still read), but this poem is
much better than anything he wrote then.
Did Chatterton produce anything the quality
of Hamlet, or the other canonical works?
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Another problem is that this poem is among
the very best of any of Shakespeare's sonnets.
It's hard to compare it to his plays, but I can't see
that it's much below the level of the best poetry
in his plays.
That Shake-speare was a great poet with
extraordinarily high talents is agreed, There
should be nothing too surprising about him
showing the extent of that talent early.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
It's hard for me to believe he could
have written a poem like this one at 18 and then not
improved--the way he improved from Titus to Two
Gentlemen to Twelfth Night.
How could any poet 'improve' on Sonnet 18?
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
I just thought of another indication, for me, of
maturity--the focus on the friend or loved one
not for a great body or terrific smile but for
a temperate disposition.
That is partly a joke, but it is heavily dependent
on the whole political situation. The poet would
have been present at numerous discussions
(say) around Burghley's dining table, where
such issues (such as the relative temperance
or intemperance of the monarchs) were
discussed. His family were highly political, and
he would have been allowed to listen, and take
part in, serious discussions from his childhood.
He would have known only too well that Mary I
(who died when he was eight and a half) was not
regarded as being in the least temperate.
[..]
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
You have written very few words on
my 'moronic "summers day" "pun" '
-- all you say is that you don't like it
-- and also note how you not got
beyond the first line.
?????
You really can't remember all the times I've talked about
what's wrong with it? For instance, "die" means have
an orgasm, not someone who has been copulated with.
You can't remember all I've said about tonal decorum?
These 'arguments' were so trivial and worthless
that I thought you given up on them.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
It is obsolete TODAY -- and was in the
20th century. The OED gives examples
of uses 40 and more years after this
Sonnet was written. This sense was
certainly common enough for the poet
to use with a sense of punning irony.
I went in to give into you on this. Except for
the irony, which is not there--because there
is nothing in the poem to indicate it would be there.
Almost every line in the poem shouts out
'irony' -- when you are reading it above
the level of an eight-year-old (i.e. above
the level of a simple-minded Strat).
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Ridiculous. There would be no point
whatever to the poet intending "a
combination of two compatible
meanings" in this context.
No point in using one word to tell someone
she was both beautiful and loving?
Exactly.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Good grief.
Doing that kind of thing is practically the
essence of being a poet.
It is the essence of almost every bad poem.
Shake-speare was not your typical average
no-brain poet.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
"You don't need any context, just the
words of the poem."
If a poem can't stand on its own (in its own time
\for those fluent in its language), it is a failure. This
is no eccentric belief but it the main axiom, as I
understand it, of the New Critics, who were the
last literary critics of poetry.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That must be why
so much 20th century poetry is memorable
-- not to say great.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Context can help clarify but shouldn't be needed, or
needed much.
In any case, I am not too concerned with
what makes good or great poetry. I am
putting forward a set of historical theses.
One of them is that Sonnet 18 is about
Mary QS et al. That stands or falls on
textual criteria that have nothing (as such)
to with poetic merit.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
So, all the poet had to do was say "rough winds"
and a reader could be expected to think of this
whole story (with delight at how cleverly the poet
expressed it, no doubt).
There was no "a reader". There was
'the reader' i.e. Elizabeth. A few other
courtiers probably also saw the poem.
It was, in effect, the same system as
had prevailed in all European and other
countries since the beginning of time --
that of patronage. These poems were
not written for a mass readership (as
Strats idiotically believe, and have to
believe). They were written for those
in power -- above all, the monarch.
Don't you agree that most poems are written for
more than a few people, Paul?
That is an unremarkable statement today,
but around 1550, it might have puzzled
many educated people, especially those
in the royal courts of Europe.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And if these poems
were written for Lizzie only, or almost only, why
did Meres refer to them as privately-circulated
among his friends?
He was not going to say they were
addressed to, and written for, Elizabeth
alone. On important matters like this,
Meres wrote what he was told to write.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Why were some of them published before 1609?
Why were all published in 1609?
If you'd been in charge, you'd have
stamped upon it all.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Why did the poet say they'd last forever if he
didn't expect more than a handful of people to
read them?
He could distinguish between their
immediate readership and their eternal
value.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
That audience was highly educated,
knew what was going on, and talked
with the poet about current issues.
He would have reflected their own
opinions, attitudes, jokes and puns
in his poetry. The monarch would
have known exactly what the poet
was talking about.
Who else was writing poems telling her what
she already knew? Surely others were, and
you can use their poems to show how common
the practice was.
I don't know of any so political. Some of
Raleigh's statements (in poetry) about the
court were pretty cutting. But poetry was
a common form of expression of the
aristocracy of the day. Often it was
wrapped up in allegory (as with Spenser).

Much Elizabethan poetry was addressed
(or 'addressed') to the Queen. Much of
it was written by courtiers. Most of it was
about 'love'. It was utterly unexceptional
for an Elizabethan courtier to write sonnets
to the Queen. Whereas the Strat theory
(that the Stratman wrote them for
publication -- presumably to make money)
is quite insane.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Nope. I say that Term X means 'X1'.
Later I say it also means 'X2'. You
protest, claiming that I said it meant
'X1', and not 'X2', and therefore I am
contradicting myself.
This happens time and time and time
again -- as it does generally with ignorant
Strats and quasi-Strats.
I said there was no ambiguity where you said it was.
You then did not say I was wrong, you said I
was incapable of grasping what ambiguity was.
In other words, all I have to do is disagree with
you about some X once to prove I don't know
what X means. Your "X1" and "X2" have nothing
to do with this--or, if they do, you need to explain how.
Read the next few words -- of yours.
It is a denial of the POSSIBILITY of
ambiguity.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And there's no reason whatever for the poet to
say "lovely" if he meant "loving."
Post by Paul Crowley
The line is full of ambiguity (that
concept you find so mysterious) but
the main theme is (a) Darnley shakes
Mary -- in their rough sexual windings;
It can't mean that because the rough winds that
shake Mary equal Ruthven.
See above for another denial of the
POSSIBILITY of ambiguity.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
The most important sense of the line
IMO is the rough windings of Darnley
and Mary in their sexual embrace.
(Remember that 'wind' in the sense
of air moving -- e.g 'southerly wind'
was pronounced to rhyme with 'mind'
and so was identical (if not with the
same meaning) to the word that forms
the first part of 'winding' -- as in a coiled
spring.)
A secondary (IMHO) sense was the
macaronic pun on "Ruth-ven" where
'Ruth' is rough. and 'ven' is wind.
A Joycean pun. What other poet ever used one?
Macaronic puns are as old as language.
Do give me an example of a poet of
Shakespeare's time who used a pun that
mixed words from two different languages, as
Joyce often did in Finnegans Wake. Make
that two different languages others than English.
English aristocrats of the day routinely
spoke several languages (Europeans
knew English about as often as modern
Americans speak Finnish). They
routinely played on names, and foreign
senses of words (or part-words) were
employed. I can't think of any at the
moment, but that is of no significance.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
And you have both Darnley and Ruthven shaking
Mary's boobs. Charming.
The whole point is that at this moment
Mary QS was a figure of fun in the
English court -- especially for Elizabeth.
Can you give any evidence of that?
Read any serious history book on the period.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Raleigh dressing up as her and shaking his faked
breasts, for instance?
Elizabeth was, in fact, upset (or pretended
to be) at a report that she had been mocked
by some characterisation of her in a some
charade at the court of Mary QS.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Some poem that explicitly makes fun of Mary?
Mary QS was a crowned monarch of a
friendly country. No explicit or crude
criticism of her could be published. Of
course, huge amounts were printed
later when she was Elizabeth's prisoner.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
The poet is superficially a comment on
the weather. But, in reality, it carries all
sorts of subversive meanings in glorious
contrast with the banal image of buds on
trees and bushes in May (in fact, there
are relatively few buds in May -- all buds
are out and finished now in London --
i.e. in mid-April after a very cold winter).
You are free to contemplate whichever
of the 'conflicting' images you prefer.
"April" does not rhyme with "day."
The cluster of images you propose seems
ridiculous to me. And, as I keep saying,
poets have been writing about buds in May or
the equivalent for thousands of years, banal
as they are to you. It's kind of human to be
glad winter is over, and crops with be able to
be grown. Believe it or not, one of the main
rites in all religions I know about celebrate
the coming of spring.
Our poet was fully aware of the routine
stuff on the joys of spring. He had no
intention of producing yet another work
in that hackneyed vein. He was
undermining it. He could have done
nothing else.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Don't you agree that if you could find poems
composed as you say this one is, it would
support your contention about how this one was
composed?
I'm sure that there were. But poems of
the day following this pattern would appeal,
and make sense, only to a small highly-
educated coterie, who shared private
knowledge (e.g. about nicknames).
So we are talking only about aristocrats,
and to poetry written by other aristocrats.
(Jokes about high-status people would
not be tolerated if they came from lower-
class ones.) The likelihood that any of
this was printed or survived is remote.
Nice dodge.
I hereby make a personal apology to
you as regards the facts of history.
I appreciate that they are all my fault.
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
You ask for a precedent for Shakespeare's
becoming a great writer although having
(according to you) illiterate parents;
Wrong. I ask for the name of ANY
writer (terrible to great) who was brought
up in an illiterate household. (And no
sane person claims the Stratman did.)
My point is that asking for precedents is
something you do, so why can't I?
Your requests are invariably silly or
pointless or both. Whereas, if Strat theory
had any sound basis, you should be able
to list thousands of authors who grew up
in illiterate households. You implicitly argue
that there was such a pattern. Why can't
you back it up? Or -- on admitting failure
-- why don't you withdraw it?

But, as we all know, Strat theory is
insane, and its proponents are dishonest
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
Post by Paul Crowley
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
why can't I ask for a precedent for this kind of
poem, and deem it unlikely if you can't find one?
I can give simple obvious reasons why
such poems would rarely have survived
from the Elizabethan (or earlier) aristocracy.
You can't give any remotely plausible
reason why (in your view) the Stratman
was the only writer in all time who grew
up in an illiterate household.
The point is that asking for precedents is a
legitimate way of arguing against a position.
Not necessarily. It is appropriate to ask
for a precedent ONLY when your opponent
is (explicitly or implicitly) implying a
pattern.

Do you exist? Can prove it by quoting
precedents -- giving a list of all tbe Bob
Grummans who lived in Florida since
2000 with an interest in poetry and Shake-
speare and who posted to HLAS?

My request here for a precedent here is
almost as insane as yours.

[..]

Paul.
BCD
2010-04-26 23:51:48 UTC
Permalink
[...] I ask for the name of ANY
writer (terrible to great) who was brought
up in an illiterate household.  [...]
***This is peculiarly difficult--not necessarily for the reason Paul
hopes, but rather because, of all people, someone who writes for a
living and thus likely hopes that "the better sort"--particularly
"better" as having disposible income to spend on books--will support
his writing by buying it has or at least had every reason to conceal
humble beginnings and downplay illiterate forebears.

***Then can we admit some correlation, especially in earlier times,
between humble beginnings and "an illiterate household"? Then I cite
poet Mark Akenside. Or, more in the Bard's era, what about John
Taylor, the "Water Poet"?--who indeed was supposedly the first to
mention Shakespeare's death in print:

In paper, many a poet now survives
Or else their lines had perish'd with their lives.
Old Chaucer, Gower, and Sir Thomas More,
Sir Philip Sidney, who the laurel wore,
Spenser, and Shakespeare did in art excell,
Sir Edward Dyer, Greene, Nash, Daniel.
Sylvester, Beaumont, Sir John Harrington,
Forgetfulness their works would over run
But that in paper they immortally
Do live in spite of death, and cannot die.

***Based on your focused research on the matter, Paul, can you tell us
what percentage of poets or other artists, terrible to great, from
Elizabethan times through, say, the reign of William IV, poets or
other artists who were arguably of humble origin, did NOT have
illiterate parents, and/or did NOT live in an illiterate household?

Best Wishes,

--BCD
Franz Gnaedinger
2010-04-12 05:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sharon Parrish
Cite a poem considered by almost everyone to be
great that was not. Keats's most famous sonnet
is about how the thrill he got from reading a
translation of Homer. One of Shelley's best-regarded
poems is about a skylark. Wordsworth wrote a
terrific passage about how much he enjoyed ice-skating
as a boy. Then there's Frost's poem about stopping
by woods on a snowy evening. Almost all haiku are
about sommonplace things. Basho's about a frog
jumping in a pond, for instance, which is the most
famous haiku and has been written about by literally
hundreds of people. And hundreds of poets have
done variations on it. It, in fact, is part of the definition of
the classical haiku that it be about a commonplace subject.
Williams's most famous poem is about nothing more
than a red wheelbarrow.
Furu ike ya
kawazu tobikomu
mizu no oto

Old pond
frog leaps in
plop

Mathematical logic is based on the formula

a = a

so a mathematician will read

pond = pond

frog = frog

sound = sound

in this instance a water-sound, and in the case of sound
it becomes apparent that the word sound denotes
immensely many different sounds, invoking Goethe's
world formula, called by himself his ever turning key

all is equal, all unequal

A pond can be a pond or something else, for example
a symbol of life, water being a global symbol of life,
in each culture and civilization I dare say; the frog is
a living being; and the frog leaping into the water may
then symbolize the life of a single living being that is
small compared to the world and leaves just a splash,
making me think the poet might have said to himself

Basho, why do you care?
you are no more than a frog
leaping into the old pond of life,
there is a splash, followed by
some ripples, and then it's over

But once Basho told this to himself, setting his mind
at rest, he could have told the same anybody else,
and, for example to the king

You are a powerful man,
but in the end also you
are just a frog leaping into
the old pond of life, making
a splash, then some ripples,
and then it's over, the surface
of the pond will smooth again,
and what remains of all
your present power and glory?

A haiku resembles a bell whose sound is rich in
overtiones. You can't produce the sound of a bell
humming, takes an expert to identify the main key
of a bell, and so the haiku has many overtones,
many layers of possible meaning that make
the few lines chime ... Don't apply mathematical
logic to a haiku, don't apply mathematical logic
to the bard either.
Franz Gnaedinger
2010-04-11 07:03:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1.   Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5.   Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6.   And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7.   And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9.   But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10.  Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11.  Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12.  When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13.      So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14.      So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
Being new in the Shakespeare buzziness I might have
a fresh look at this sonnet by the bard. He is addressing
a woman, and comparing her to a summer's day, to
a Summer's day, actually, capital S, from which we may
infer that high Summer corresponds to a high standing
person. Note well, the bard does not praise a summer's
day, from the outlet he speaks of a person, makes a
comparison, invites us to think double. Rough winds
do shake the darling buds of May. This would then
refer to the younger days of that high standing person,
when that person was budding, so to say, and of buds
one speaks when women are involved, as the flower
metaphors are much more frequent when it comes to
girls and women. So we have a high standing woman
who is praised, for what is nicer than a Summer's day?
But the high praise is followed by a soft reproach,
sometimes too hot the eye of heauen shines, and
often is his gold complexion dimm'd, and when the height
of summer is reached, decline is programmed, the days
will get shorter and shorter, first slowly, then quickly,
summer will give way to fall, and fall to winter. Summer
here is male, while the buds of May indicated a woman.
This may hint at a high standing woman in the role of a man.
What other person can this have been than Queen Elizabeth?
Again, the bard himself asks us to think double, and once
we follow his invitation there is only one possibility, Queen
Elizabeth. Paul Crowley abbreviated the above steps, but
I think he is quite right in sensing that the person addressed
can only be the queen. I know very little about English or
British history, having even difficulties understanding the
correct use of Britain or England, so I can't say more,
but in any way, double thinking is invited by the bard himself.
Peter Groves
2010-04-11 07:27:36 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 11, 5:03 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <***@bluemail.ch> wrote:

[desunt nonnulla]

Paul Crowley abbreviated the above steps, but
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I think he is quite right in sensing that the person addressed
can only be the queen. I know very little about English or
British history, having even difficulties understanding the
correct use of Britain or England, so I can't say more,
but in any way, double thinking is invited by the bard himself.
Quite right -- why let ignorance stand in the way of your
pontifications? None of the other Oxfordians does.

Peter G.
Willedever
2010-04-14 16:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
.
... He is addressing
a woman, ...
.
That is correct, or at least, correct in a way. The woman is
Shakespeare's own fictional construction. Sonnet 18 concerns the
Ophelia character in 'Hamlet.'

Begin by observing Laertes' line in Scene 16 (Act 4 scene 5,) and then
proceed to the Sonnet:

Laertes: ... O Rose of May ...

01. Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
02. Thou art more lovely and more temperate;
03. Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
04. And summer's lease has all too short a date.

Ophelia is the "darling bud of May," and she died young in 'Hamlet.'

05. Sometimes too hot the eye of heaven shines,

Eye of Heaven = the Sun (of course,) and there is wordplay with "the
son," which is Hamlet. The line has reference to the Nunnery Scene in
'Hamlet,' Scene 8, where Hamlet glares angrily at Ophelia, much to her
distress.

06. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,

By melancholy, in the case of Hamlet, and by clouds, in the case of
the sun. (The phrase "gold complexion" reveals that Shakespeare
pictured Hamlet as blond, typical enough among the Danes.) The Sonnet
continues the son/sun pun.

07. And every fair from fair some-time declines,

In falling from the tree, of life, eventually - like Ophelia's
decline, her fall, from the willow.

08. By chance, or nature's changing course untrimmed:
09. But thy eternal summer shall not fade,

Ophelia's eternal youth, or eternal prime, shall not fade, since she
is a fictional character, constantly renewed whenever 'Hamlet' is
acted or read. She is immortal. Shakespeare was pleased, as well he
should have been, that through the power of his pen he could create a
kind of immortality.

10. Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow'st,

"Owest" to the world. The concept is that Ophelia has an obligation
to the world, to display her beauty, either onstage, or in the
reader's own mind when he pictures her as he reads 'Hamlet.' (The
word "owest" is correct, as originally printed. The editorial change
which one commonly sees, to "ownest," is a blunder.)

11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternal lines to time thou grow'st;

Here, "growest" means "spreads," in the same general sense as grass
spreading. Shakespeare is saying that Ophelia's presence, as a
fictional character, and her fame, will grow, as awareness of her
spreads to a wider and wider audience, over time. What keeps a
fictional character "alive" is her presence in men's awareness.

13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,

So long as men can breathe, to speak the lines of 'Hamlet' on stage to
entertain an audience, or eyes can see, to read 'Hamlet' in print...

14. So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

"This" is not the sonnet, it is the play 'Hamlet,' where the Ophelia
character is found. "This" is an ambiguous word, which can mean
either "this here," or "that, there" - an ambiguity used to good
effect by the Bard in 'Hamlet' and elsewhere.

If anybody wants to know what Sonnet 18 is really about.

It is quite odd that although people know Shakespeare spent most of
his working hours on plays, so little has been done to research links
between his Sonnets and his plays. There are many such links,
including, of course, this one.

Additionally, while most of the Shakespeare Sonnets were written by
Mr. William Shakespeare of Stratford, some were not, but were written
to him, instead. He did write this Sonnet 18.
Franz Gnaedinger
2010-04-15 05:35:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willedever
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1. Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3. Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5. Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7. And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9. But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10. Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14. So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
.
... He is addressing
a woman, ...
.
That is correct, or at least, correct in a way. The woman is
Shakespeare's own fictional construction. Sonnet 18 concerns the
Ophelia character in 'Hamlet.'
Begin by observing Laertes' line in Scene 16 (Act 4 scene 5,) and then
Laertes: ... O Rose of May ...
01. Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
02. Thou art more lovely and more temperate;
03. Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
04. And summer's lease has all too short a date.
Ophelia is the "darling bud of May," and she died young in 'Hamlet.'
05. Sometimes too hot the eye of heaven shines,
Eye of Heaven = the Sun (of course,) and there is wordplay with "the
son," which is Hamlet. The line has reference to the Nunnery Scene in
'Hamlet,' Scene 8, where Hamlet glares angrily at Ophelia, much to her
distress.
06. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
By melancholy, in the case of Hamlet, and by clouds, in the case of
the sun. (The phrase "gold complexion" reveals that Shakespeare
pictured Hamlet as blond, typical enough among the Danes.) The Sonnet
continues the son/sun pun.
07. And every fair from fair some-time declines,
In falling from the tree, of life, eventually - like Ophelia's
decline, her fall, from the willow.
09. But thy eternal summer shall not fade,
Ophelia's eternal youth, or eternal prime, shall not fade, since she
is a fictional character, constantly renewed whenever 'Hamlet' is
acted or read. She is immortal. Shakespeare was pleased, as well he
should have been, that through the power of his pen he could create a
kind of immortality.
10. Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow'st,
"Owest" to the world. The concept is that Ophelia has an obligation
to the world, to display her beauty, either onstage, or in the
reader's own mind when he pictures her as he reads 'Hamlet.' (The
word "owest" is correct, as originally printed. The editorial change
which one commonly sees, to "ownest," is a blunder.)
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12. When in eternal lines to time thou grow'st;
Here, "growest" means "spreads," in the same general sense as grass
spreading. Shakespeare is saying that Ophelia's presence, as a
fictional character, and her fame, will grow, as awareness of her
spreads to a wider and wider audience, over time. What keeps a
fictional character "alive" is her presence in men's awareness.
13. So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long as men can breathe, to speak the lines of 'Hamlet' on stage to
entertain an audience, or eyes can see, to read 'Hamlet' in print...
14. So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.
"This" is not the sonnet, it is the play 'Hamlet,' where the Ophelia
character is found. "This" is an ambiguous word, which can mean
either "this here," or "that, there" - an ambiguity used to good
effect by the Bard in 'Hamlet' and elsewhere.
If anybody wants to know what Sonnet 18 is really about.
It is quite odd that although people know Shakespeare spent most of
his working hours on plays, so little has been done to research links
between his Sonnets and his plays. There are many such links,
including, of course, this one.
Additionally, while most of the Shakespeare Sonnets were written by
Mr. William Shakespeare of Stratford, some were not, but were written
to him, instead. He did write this Sonnet 18.
If the adressee in sonnet 18 is equated with Ophelia
then she is mad, or driven into madness by someone.
I see nothing of madness in sonnet 18, and I believe
it was written by Edward de Vere, honoring Queen
Elizabeth. Now the question is about the comparison
of the adressee and the summer's day. The most simple
poems by Goethe, "Sah ein Knab ein Röslein stehn"
and "Ueber allen Gipfeln ist Ruh" are deceptively simple.
Sonnet 18, compared to other sonnets, is also very
simple, apparently simple, deceptively simple again?
Might well be. Either Queen Elizabeth of England is
compared to Queen Mary of Scotland, as Paul Crowley
proposes, implying that the sonnet was written in 1566
when Edward de Vere was just 16 years old. Or, the other
possibility, is that Edward de Vere compared the official
Queen, as she appears to her subjects, with the private
queen he knows very well, having been reared at her court.
Then the rough winds that shake the darling buds of May
are the events early on in her carrier, and the too hot
summer's days are the hard decisions she is obliged
to pronounce as Queen and ruler of a rising empire
in her male role (_his_ eye), but on a private basis
the queen is different, more lovely = kind and more
temperate than as queen, in her official position.
Now this interpretation allows a later date, perhaps
1576 or even 1586. But as I said, I know very little of
English or British history, and so I can't really tell.
Willedever
2010-04-15 16:08:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
.
If the adressee in sonnet 18 is equated with Ophelia
then she is mad, or driven into madness by someone.
I see nothing of madness in sonnet 18, ...
.
One must take care not to confuse fictional characters with real
persons. A fictional character cannot, of course, be "really mad," or
be "driven into madness." A fictional character has only that
"psychology" bestowed upon him, or her, by the author. The point, and
indeed the entire existence, for a fictional character, is performance
- which concerns how well the character works onstage, or in print.
Ophelia is certainly an excellent character. That is the point,
excellence of characterization, both in relation to 'Hamlet,' and in
relation to the Sonnet.

Then, in fictional writing, "madness" can appear as a theme, in
context, as an author may desire. But there is no reason to suppose
one would find "madness" as a theme in the Sonnet just because it's a
theme in 'Hamlet.' They are different writings, obviously.

Sonnet 18 was most likely written in 1605, after the Second Quarto of
'Hamlet' was published. (According to the dates on surviving copies,
the Second Quarto publication began in 1604 and continued into 1605.)
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
.
... Now the question is about the comparison
of the adressee and the summer's day. ...
.
Shakespeare began the Sonnet, as we see, by pondering whether he
should pursue so commonplace an analogy. Thus the rhetorical
question, of course. He did pursue it, to a degree, and in no
commonplace way, obviously.

Additionally, for anybody who really wants to learn anything about the
Sonnets, Sonnets 70 and 99 also concern the Ophelia character. Sonnet
99 is about the choice of flowers for Ophelia's "death garlands," her
flowers in the willow tree, that is, and Sonnet 70 is a kind of
apology, among other things, for the "crow" in the crowflower
Shakespeare gave her.
Franz Gnaedinger
2010-04-16 05:35:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willedever
One must take care not to confuse fictional characters with real
persons. A fictional character cannot, of course, be "really mad," or
be "driven into madness." A fictional character has only that
"psychology" bestowed upon him, or her, by the author. The point, and
indeed the entire existence, for a fictional character, is performance
- which concerns how well the character works onstage, or in print.
Ophelia is certainly an excellent character. That is the point,
excellence of characterization, both in relation to 'Hamlet,' and in
relation to the Sonnet.
Then, in fictional writing, "madness" can appear as a theme, in
context, as an author may desire. But there is no reason to suppose
one would find "madness" as a theme in the Sonnet just because it's a
theme in 'Hamlet.' They are different writings, obviously.
Sonnet 18 was most likely written in 1605, after the Second Quarto of
'Hamlet' was published. (According to the dates on surviving copies,
the Second Quarto publication began in 1604 and continued into 1605.)
-
Post by Willedever
Shakespeare began the Sonnet, as we see, by pondering whether he
should pursue so commonplace an analogy. Thus the rhetorical
question, of course. He did pursue it, to a degree, and in no
commonplace way, obviously.
Additionally, for anybody who really wants to learn anything about the
Sonnets, Sonnets 70 and 99 also concern the Ophelia character. Sonnet
99 is about the choice of flowers for Ophelia's "death garlands," her
flowers in the willow tree, that is, and Sonnet 70 is a kind of
apology, among other things, for the "crow" in the crowflower
Shakespeare gave her.
Hamlet, in my opinion, is about too narrow a system
- be it religion, philosophy, the law, or the feudal system,
their set of rules, internalized in the rational mind - that
causes madness, and is not less than a discovery of the
subconscious and unconscious that follows a different
logic. Mathematical logic is based on the formula a = a
while Goethe formulated the logic of art, life, and nature
as follows: "All is equal, all unequal ..." which is also the
logic of the play Hamlet. Hamlet is himself is not himself,
he loves Ophelia loves her not loves her more than anyone
else. Hamlet is the bard is not the bard, Edward de Vere,
and Ophelia might be a reference to his wife Anne Cecil,
a very fine woman, driven to 'insanity' by him. Ophelia may
then be Anne Cecil and not be her, again along the same
logic, while In the adressee of sonnet 18 I still see Queen
Elizabeth. And yes, the flowers are surely important.
Goethe speaks of a flower language used by lovers:
a flower added to a billet d'amour had a specific meaning.
The same must be true for the flowers adorning Ophelia.
b***@nut-n-but.net
2010-04-15 15:16:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nut-n-but.net
1.   Shall I compare thee to a Summers day?
3.   Rough windes do shake the darling buds of May,
5.   Sometime too hot the eye of heauen shines,
6.   And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
7.   And euery faire from faire some-time declines,
9.   But thy eternall Sommer shall not fade,
10.  Nor lose possession of that faire thou ow'st,
11.  Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12.  When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st,
13.      So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
14.      So long liues this, and this giues life to thee,
.
... He is addressing
a woman, ...
.
That is correct, or at least, correct in a way.  The woman is
Shakespeare's own fictional construction.  Sonnet 18 concerns the
Ophelia character in 'Hamlet.'
Begin by observing Laertes' line in Scene 16 (Act 4 scene 5,) and then
Laertes: ... O Rose of May ...
01. Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
02. Thou art more lovely and more temperate;
03. Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
04. And summer's lease has all too short a date.
Ophelia is the "darling bud of May," and she died young in 'Hamlet.'
05. Sometimes too hot the eye of heaven shines,
Eye of Heaven = the Sun (of course,) and there is wordplay with "the
son," which is Hamlet.  The line has reference to the Nunnery Scene in
'Hamlet,' Scene 8, where Hamlet glares angrily at Ophelia, much to her
distress.
06. And often is his gold complexion dimm'd,
By melancholy, in the case of Hamlet, and by clouds, in the case of
the sun.  (The phrase "gold complexion" reveals that Shakespeare
pictured Hamlet as blond, typical enough among the Danes.)  The Sonnet
continues the son/sun pun.
07. And every fair from fair some-time declines,
In falling from the tree, of life, eventually - like Ophelia's
decline, her fall, from the willow.
09. But thy eternal summer shall not fade,
Ophelia's eternal youth, or eternal prime, shall not fade, since she
is a fictional character, constantly renewed whenever 'Hamlet' is
acted or read.  She is immortal.  Shakespeare was pleased, as well he
should have been, that through the power of his pen he could create a
kind of immortality.
10. Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow'st,
"Owest" to the world.  The concept is that Ophelia has an obligation
to the world, to display her beauty, either onstage, or in the
reader's own mind when he pictures her as he reads 'Hamlet.'  (The
word "owest" is correct, as originally printed.  The editorial change
which one commonly sees, to "ownest," is a blunder.)
11. Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
12.  When in eternal lines to time thou grow'st;
Here, "growest" means "spreads," in the same general sense as grass
spreading.  Shakespeare is saying that Ophelia's presence, as a
fictional character, and her fame, will grow, as awareness of her
spreads to a wider and wider audience, over time.  What keeps a
fictional character "alive" is her presence in men's awareness.
13.             So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long as men can breathe, to speak the lines of 'Hamlet' on stage to
entertain an audience, or eyes can see, to read 'Hamlet' in print...
14.             So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.
"This" is not the sonnet, it is the play 'Hamlet,' where the Ophelia
character is found.  "This" is an ambiguous word, which can mean
either "this here," or "that, there" - an ambiguity used to good
effect by the Bard in 'Hamlet' and elsewhere.
If anybody wants to know what Sonnet 18 is really about.
It is quite odd that although people know Shakespeare spent most of
his working hours on plays, so little has been done to research links
between his Sonnets and his plays.  There are many such links,
including, of course, this one.
Additionally, while most of the Shakespeare Sonnets were written by
Mr. William Shakespeare of Stratford, some were not, but were written
to him, instead.  He did write this Sonnet 18.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Paul, another complete interpretation by a wack that's better than
yours. The one thing all of them have in common is an inability to
get pleasure out of a poem that they can't mangle an Important
Secondary Under-Meaning onto.

--Bob
Willedever
2010-04-15 15:38:50 UTC
Permalink
.
I eat Strat turds for breakfast!
I eat Strat turds for lunch!!
I eat Strat turds for dinner!!!
I eat Strat turds a bunch !!!!!!!!
.
Gosh, Bob, you really are a poet. Wow. That should silence all those
detractors who have called you nothing but a pretentious, ignorant
dunce, and scoffed at your poetic talent. Well done.
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