Discussion:
26
(too old to reply)
Arthur Neuendorffer
2021-05-20 14:41:33 UTC
Permalink
---------------------------------------------
<<I assume you post your ELSs here as a record for posterity.>>
....................................................
It is my *searchable* card file
-------------------------------------------------
Its supposed to be a discussion group, not your personal file.
You've annoyed the hell out of a lot of people.
. . . . Good!

....................................................
... that also hopefully catches someones attention.
It also serves as a dateable record for posterity.
-------------------------------------------
<<Obviously it's possible to write using ELSs
but I think difficult to write good poetry or prose
incorporating and ELS, have you tried?>>
I'm a physicist. The extent of my poetry or prose would
be on the order of: "THE SPANISH SHIPS HAVE SAILED."
------------------------------------------------------------------
https://tinyurl.com/4x9956pu

_Secrets of the Dedication to Shakespeare’s Sonnets_
Originally published in THE OXFORDIAN, Volume 2, 1999
.
. . . John M. Rollett
.
But what I was really hoping to find was examples of Elizabethan ciphers. This took quite a long time, basically because there aren’t any. None have survived, although several people at the time did describe various useful techniques which might have been used, for all we know. (Strictly speaking, one should class acrostics as very simple ciphers. The Elizabethans were certainly fond of them, and quite a lot do survive, especially in poetry.) The only example of a cipher I was able to find was in a biography of John Dee, the Elizabethan savant and astrologer (he was instructed by Robert Dudley to choose an auspicious day for the Queen’s Coronation, and many people would agree that he did a good job). Here (left) is the example his biographer gave to illustrate a method described by John Dee. This reads, going down and up the columns,

“The Spanish ships have sailed.” The message would be sent off,
reading across, as T H S S A H S H E I E I I V L S N P A E P A S H D.

To someone intercepting it, it would obviously proclaim itself as a coded message and to decode it, all one has to do is to count the number of letters––25––and write it out again in a 5 by 5 square. It is amusing to learn that Dee regarded this as “a childish cryptogram such as eny man of knowledge shud be able to resolve.”
..................
. . <= 5 =>
.
. T H S S {A}
. H S H E {I}
. E I I V {L}
. S N P A {E}
. P A S H {D}
..............................
THE SPANISH SHIPS HAVE SAILED
{DELIA} = chaste Artemis = Queen Elizabeth.
-------------------------------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delia

<<{DELIA} is a feminine given name, either taken from an epithet
of the Greek *moon goddess* Artemis or else representing a
short form of A{DELIA}, Be{DELIA}, Cor{DELIA} or O{DELIA}.>>
-----------------------------------------------------------
There are numerous examples of Jacobians writing *acrostic*
poetry; why would ELS poetry or prose be any harder?
1) For the same reason Jacobians wrote *acrostic* poetry.
2) As a hidden record for posterity.
-------------------------------------------------
Acrostics are easy to spot, you don't need to wait for posterity.
That's why #2) was *included* with #1).
-------------------------------------------------
ELSs is would need to have the key handed down orally.
I accept that as a possibility.
.......................................................
David Roper suggests that: <H{I}NT>s to the skip code #
. . . might just be staring one in the face:
-----------------------------------------------------------
David Roper: "{SO TEST} Him, *I UOW* He Is Edward De Uere"
.............................................................
_______________ . . <= 34 =>

. T E R. R. A. T E .. [G] .I T,PO. PULUSMÆRE ______... TO. LYMPUSHABE. T
.........................................................................
. S T A. Y. P. A S .. [S] .E N GE. RWHYGOEST _ _ _ _ . TH. OVBYSOFAST. R
. E A D. I. F. T . (H)[O] .V C AN. STWHOM _ [E] .[N] .VIO. VSDEATHHAT. H
.*P L A <S> T* W . (I){T} <H{I}NT> HISMON _ [U] (M)[E] NT *SHAKSPEARE* W
. I T H <W> H. O . (M){E} .Q{U}IC. KNATVR _ [E D] (I)[D]E *WHOSENAMED* O
. T H D <E> C. K Y... {S} .T{O}MB. EFARMO _ [R E] t (H) E. NCOSTSIEHA. L
. L Y T <H> E. H A-.. {T} .H{W}RI. TTLEAV _ [E]S. L. I. V. INGARTBVTP. A
. G E T. O. S. E R.... V. .E H IS. WITT
.......................................................
[EUERE][DE] 34
{SO TEST}.. 34
{I UOW}.... 34
<HEWS>.... -34
------------------------------------------------------------
*125* is the gematric number, being the sum of the English
characters for PHILIP SIDNEI = [(15+8+9+11+9+15)+(18+9+4+13+5+9)]
-------------------------------------------------
English or Latin? Do you have any explicit evidence for
the use of English gematria. Was the alphabet fixed?
. . 24 letter alphabet.

(I wrote that piece for your benefit knowing your interest in numerology,)
------------------------------------------------------------
.......................................................
. . . . . Sonnet *125*
. WEr't ought to me I "bore the canopy",
. With my extern the outward honoring,
. Or layd great bases {For} eternity,
. Which proues more [S]hort then wast or ruining?
. Haue [I] not seene dwellers on forme an[D] fauor
. Lose all,and more by payi[N]g too much rent
. For compound sw[E]et;Forgoing simple sauor,
. Pitt[I]full thriuors in their gazing spent.
. Noe,let me be obsequious in thy heart,
. And take thou my oblacion,poore but free,
. Which is not mixt with seconds,knows no art,
. But mutuall render onely me for thee.
. Hence,thou subbornd Informer, a trew soule
. When most impeacht,stands least in thy controule.
.......................................................
. . . . . <= *26* =>
.
. {F o r} e t e r n i t y,W h i c h p r o u e s m o r e
. [S] h o r t t h e n w a s t o r r u i n i n g?H a u e
. [I] n o t s e e n e d w e l l e r s o n f o r m e a n
. [D] f a u o r L o s e a l l,a n d m o r e b y p a y i
. [N] g t o o m u c h r e n t F o r c o m p o u n d s w
. [E] e t;F o r g o i n g s i m p l e s a u o r,P i t t
. [I] f u l l t h r i u o r s i n t h e i r g a z i n g
.
{For}[SIDNEI] *26* : starting in 3rd line.
---------------------------------------------------
. . . . . Sonnet 47
.
. BEtwixt mine eye and heart a league is tooke,
. And each doth good turnes now vnto the other,
. When that mine eye is famisht {For} a looke,
. Or heart in loue with [S]ighes himselfe doth smother;
. W[I]th my loues picture then my eye [D]oth feast,
. An other tim[E] mine eye is my hearts guest,
. And [I]n his thoughts of loue doth share a part.
. So either by thy picture or my loue,
. Thy seife away,are present still with me,
. For thou nor farther then my thoughts canst moue,
. And I am still with them,and they with thee.
. Or if they sleepe, thy picture in my sight
. Awakes my heart,to hearts and eyes delight.
.......................................................
. . . . . <= *26* =>
.
. {F o r} a l o o k e,O r h e a r t i n l o u e w i t h
. [S] i g h e s h i m s e l f e d o t h s m o t h e r;W
. [I] t h m y l o u e s p i c t u r e t h e n m y e y e
. [D] o t h f e a s t,A n d t o t h e p a i n t e d b a
. [N] q u e t b i d s m y h e a r t:A n o t h e r t i m
. [E] m i n e e y e i s m y h e a r t s g u e s t,A n d
. [I] n h i s t h o u g h t s
.
{For}[SIDNEI] *26* : starting in 3rd line.
.......................................................
Prob. of 2{For}[SIDNEI]s same skip ~ 1 in 34,000,000
.................................................
Shortest {For}[SIDNEI] skip in KJV : 869
Shortest {For}[SIDNEI] skip in Moby Dick : 2818
----------------------------------------------------------
. . . . . . . . *26* days
.......................................................
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Sidney#Injury_and_death
<<[Sir Philip Sidney (30 November 1554 - 17 October 1586)]
joined Sir John Norris in the Battle of Zutphen, fighting for
the Protestant cause against the Spanish. During the battle,
he was shot in the thigh & died of gangrene *26* days later.>>
------------------------------------------------------------
Two 26 SIDNEI ELS's You have repeatability
and two control samples. Sounds promising.
Philip Sidney started to versify the Psalms.
Sister Mary finished the job. I just bought a copy.
26 = the name of God in Hebrew.
125 - 47 = 3 x 26.
---------------------------------------------------------
"The Names of the *26* Principall Actors in all these Playes"
contains 2 FF *TELLESTICKS* found by Jones Harris & John Rollett:
.........................................................
.[William Shakespeare]
. Richard B(ū)rba(D)ge.
. John Hemmings.
. Augusti(ñ)e Phillip [S].
. William Kemp . . . .[T].
. Thom(ā)s Poop . . . (e).
. George Brya . . . . (N).
. Henry C(O)n[D]el . .[L].
. W(I)l(L)iam S(L) .(Y|E).
.{R}ichard Cowl . . . [Y].
. John Low(I)ne.
. Samuell Crosse.
. A(L|E]xander Co(O)k{E}.
----------------------------------------------------------
*STONE*, n. [OE. ston, *STAN*; akin to Old Saxon *STEN*,
... G. stein, Sw. *STEN*, Gr. a pebble.]
..........................................................
Prob. of 'St(e)nley' or 'St(a)nley' ~ 1 in 2,500,000
.................................................................
Prob. (at least) 6 of the 7[ST(e)NLEY] guys were Lord *STRANGE's*
Men while only (at most) 3 of the other 19 PA's were ~ 1 in 450
----------------------------------------------------------
. Samuel Gilburn{E}.
.[R]obert Armi(N).
. Will(I)am Ostl(E)r.
.(N)athan Field.
.........................
. John Underwoo . . . [D].
.{N}icholas T(O)ole . {Y}.
. William Eccl[E]ston {E}.
. Joseph Taylo . . . .{R}.
. Robert Be[N]fiel . .{D}.
. Robe(R)t Gough . . .{E}.
. Richar{D} Robinso . {N}.
. John Shancke.
. John Rice.
----------------------------------------------------------
Philip Sidney BFF *NED DYER* also shows up as an ELS:
.........................................................
. . . . . . . <= *26* =>
.
. [W i l l i a m S h a k e s p e a r e] R i c .h. a r d B
. (U) r b a(D)g e.J o h n H e m m i n g s.A u .g. u s t i
. (N) e P h i l l i p[S]W i l l i a m K e m p [T] T h o m
. (A) s P o o p(e)G e o r g e B r y a(N)H e n .r. y C o n
. [D] e l l.W i l(L)i a m S l(Y|E|R}i c h a r .d. C o w l
. [Y] J o h n L o w(I)n e.S a m u e l l C r o .s. s e.A l
. [E] x a n d e r C o(O)k{E}S a m u e l G i l .b. u r n E
. [R] o b e r t A r m i(N)W i l l i a m O s t .l. E r N a
. .t. h a n F i e l d.J o h n U n d e r w o o [D] N i c h
. .o. l a s T o o l e{Y}W i l l i a m E c c l [E] s t o n
. .e. J o s e p h T a y l o r.R o b e r t B e [N] f i e l
. .d.

(UNA) 26 : personification of "Truth"
........................
[DYER] 26
[NED] -26
------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Nockolds wrote:

<<If you do want posterity to note these things take your best examples, present them in an easy to read form, and give them a context. They will just get lost otherwise.>>
............................................................
My *main* goal is to:
. . amuse myself with an interesting puzzle!

My work has already inspired Alan Green & Alexander Waugh
in their studies to locate buried Masonic Treasures:
---------------------------------------------------
There are at least 2 anti-Stratfordian cypher-mongers
who are attempting to make it *an exact science* by
claiming *a priori* where written evidence might lie:

1) Alan Green in the Stratford altar:
.


2) Alexander Waugh in Westminster Abbey "St. Blaise" altar:
.

.

---------------------------------------------------
I much prefer having competent anti-Stratfordian
cypher-monger competition (than incompetent followers).
------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Nockolds wrote:

<<BTW I had a go at authorial ELSs in Virgil and Ovid and even got an interested reply from one academic. It's quite common amongst classics scholars to look for acrostics and telestics, even if they speak somewhat apologetically of 'men in white coats'. I think the way Latin was written without spaces to some extent might encourage ELSs>>

Anything that distracts you from promoting your disgusting politics has to be good.
------------------------------------------
Art N.
Peter Nockolds
2021-05-20 15:01:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Neuendorffer
---------------------------------------------
<<I assume you post your ELSs here as a record for posterity.>>
....................................................
It is my *searchable* card file
-------------------------------------------------
Its supposed to be a discussion group, not your personal file.
You've annoyed the hell out of a lot of people.
. . . . Good!
....................................................
... that also hopefully catches someones attention.
It also serves as a dateable record for posterity.
-------------------------------------------
<<Obviously it's possible to write using ELSs
but I think difficult to write good poetry or prose
incorporating and ELS, have you tried?>>
I'm a physicist. The extent of my poetry or prose would
be on the order of: "THE SPANISH SHIPS HAVE SAILED."
------------------------------------------------------------------
https://tinyurl.com/4x9956pu
_Secrets of the Dedication to Shakespeare’s Sonnets_
Originally published in THE OXFORDIAN, Volume 2, 1999
.
. . . John M. Rollett
.
But what I was really hoping to find was examples of Elizabethan ciphers. This took quite a long time, basically because there aren’t any. None have survived, although several people at the time did describe various useful techniques which might have been used, for all we know. (Strictly speaking, one should class acrostics as very simple ciphers. The Elizabethans were certainly fond of them, and quite a lot do survive, especially in poetry.) The only example of a cipher I was able to find was in a biography of John Dee, the Elizabethan savant and astrologer (he was instructed by Robert Dudley to choose an auspicious day for the Queen’s Coronation, and many people would agree that he did a good job). Here (left) is the example his biographer gave to illustrate a method described by John Dee. This reads, going down and up the columns,
“The Spanish ships have sailed.” The message would be sent off,
reading across, as T H S S A H S H E I E I I V L S N P A E P A S H D.
To someone intercepting it, it would obviously proclaim itself as a coded message and to decode it, all one has to do is to count the number of letters––25––and write it out again in a 5 by 5 square. It is amusing to learn that Dee regarded this as “a childish cryptogram such as eny man of knowledge shud be able to resolve.”
..................
. . <= 5 =>
.
. T H S S {A}
. H S H E {I}
. E I I V {L}
. S N P A {E}
. P A S H {D}
..............................
THE SPANISH SHIPS HAVE SAILED
{DELIA} = chaste Artemis = Queen Elizabeth.
-------------------------------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delia
<<{DELIA} is a feminine given name, either taken from an epithet
of the Greek *moon goddess* Artemis or else representing a
short form of A{DELIA}, Be{DELIA}, Cor{DELIA} or O{DELIA}.>>
-----------------------------------------------------------
There are numerous examples of Jacobians writing *acrostic*
poetry; why would ELS poetry or prose be any harder?
1) For the same reason Jacobians wrote *acrostic* poetry.
2) As a hidden record for posterity.
-------------------------------------------------
Acrostics are easy to spot, you don't need to wait for posterity.
That's why #2) was *included* with #1).
-------------------------------------------------
ELSs is would need to have the key handed down orally.
I accept that as a possibility.
.......................................................
David Roper suggests that: <H{I}NT>s to the skip code #
-----------------------------------------------------------
David Roper: "{SO TEST} Him, *I UOW* He Is Edward De Uere"
.............................................................
_______________ . . <= 34 =>
. T E R. R. A. T E .. [G] .I T,PO. PULUSMÆRE ______... TO. LYMPUSHABE. T
.........................................................................
. S T A. Y. P. A S .. [S] .E N GE. RWHYGOEST _ _ _ _ . TH. OVBYSOFAST. R
. E A D. I. F. T . (H)[O] .V C AN. STWHOM _ [E] .[N] .VIO. VSDEATHHAT. H
.*P L A <S> T* W . (I){T} <H{I}NT> HISMON _ [U] (M)[E] NT *SHAKSPEARE* W
. I T H <W> H. O . (M){E} .Q{U}IC. KNATVR _ [E D] (I)[D]E *WHOSENAMED* O
. T H D <E> C. K Y... {S} .T{O}MB. EFARMO _ [R E] t (H) E. NCOSTSIEHA. L
. L Y T <H> E. H A-.. {T} .H{W}RI. TTLEAV _ [E]S. L. I. V. INGARTBVTP. A
. G E T. O. S. E R.... V. .E H IS. WITT
.......................................................
[EUERE][DE] 34
{SO TEST}.. 34
{I UOW}.... 34
<HEWS>.... -34
------------------------------------------------------------
*125* is the gematric number, being the sum of the English
characters for PHILIP SIDNEI = [(15+8+9+11+9+15)+(18+9+4+13+5+9)]
-------------------------------------------------
English or Latin? Do you have any explicit evidence for
the use of English gematria. Was the alphabet fixed?
. . 24 letter alphabet.
(I wrote that piece for your benefit knowing your interest in numerology,)
------------------------------------------------------------
.......................................................
. . . . . Sonnet *125*
. WEr't ought to me I "bore the canopy",
. With my extern the outward honoring,
. Or layd great bases {For} eternity,
. Which proues more [S]hort then wast or ruining?
. Haue [I] not seene dwellers on forme an[D] fauor
. Lose all,and more by payi[N]g too much rent
. For compound sw[E]et;Forgoing simple sauor,
. Pitt[I]full thriuors in their gazing spent.
. Noe,let me be obsequious in thy heart,
. And take thou my oblacion,poore but free,
. Which is not mixt with seconds,knows no art,
. But mutuall render onely me for thee.
. Hence,thou subbornd Informer, a trew soule
. When most impeacht,stands least in thy controule.
.......................................................
. . . . . <= *26* =>
.
. {F o r} e t e r n i t y,W h i c h p r o u e s m o r e
. [S] h o r t t h e n w a s t o r r u i n i n g?H a u e
. [I] n o t s e e n e d w e l l e r s o n f o r m e a n
. [D] f a u o r L o s e a l l,a n d m o r e b y p a y i
. [N] g t o o m u c h r e n t F o r c o m p o u n d s w
. [E] e t;F o r g o i n g s i m p l e s a u o r,P i t t
. [I] f u l l t h r i u o r s i n t h e i r g a z i n g
.
{For}[SIDNEI] *26* : starting in 3rd line.
---------------------------------------------------
. . . . . Sonnet 47
.
. BEtwixt mine eye and heart a league is tooke,
. And each doth good turnes now vnto the other,
. When that mine eye is famisht {For} a looke,
. Or heart in loue with [S]ighes himselfe doth smother;
. W[I]th my loues picture then my eye [D]oth feast,
. An other tim[E] mine eye is my hearts guest,
. And [I]n his thoughts of loue doth share a part.
. So either by thy picture or my loue,
. Thy seife away,are present still with me,
. For thou nor farther then my thoughts canst moue,
. And I am still with them,and they with thee.
. Or if they sleepe, thy picture in my sight
. Awakes my heart,to hearts and eyes delight.
.......................................................
. . . . . <= *26* =>
.
. {F o r} a l o o k e,O r h e a r t i n l o u e w i t h
. [S] i g h e s h i m s e l f e d o t h s m o t h e r;W
. [I] t h m y l o u e s p i c t u r e t h e n m y e y e
. [D] o t h f e a s t,A n d t o t h e p a i n t e d b a
. [N] q u e t b i d s m y h e a r t:A n o t h e r t i m
. [E] m i n e e y e i s m y h e a r t s g u e s t,A n d
. [I] n h i s t h o u g h t s
.
{For}[SIDNEI] *26* : starting in 3rd line.
.......................................................
Prob. of 2{For}[SIDNEI]s same skip ~ 1 in 34,000,000
.................................................
Shortest {For}[SIDNEI] skip in KJV : 869
Shortest {For}[SIDNEI] skip in Moby Dick : 2818
----------------------------------------------------------
. . . . . . . . *26* days
.......................................................
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Sidney#Injury_and_death
<<[Sir Philip Sidney (30 November 1554 - 17 October 1586)]
joined Sir John Norris in the Battle of Zutphen, fighting for
the Protestant cause against the Spanish. During the battle,
he was shot in the thigh & died of gangrene *26* days later.>>
------------------------------------------------------------
Two 26 SIDNEI ELS's You have repeatability
and two control samples. Sounds promising.
Philip Sidney started to versify the Psalms.
Sister Mary finished the job. I just bought a copy.
26 = the name of God in Hebrew.
125 - 47 = 3 x 26.
---------------------------------------------------------
"The Names of the *26* Principall Actors in all these Playes"
.........................................................
.[William Shakespeare]
. Richard B(ū)rba(D)ge.
. John Hemmings.
. Augusti(ñ)e Phillip [S].
. William Kemp . . . .[T].
. Thom(ā)s Poop . . . (e).
. George Brya . . . . (N).
. Henry C(O)n[D]el . .[L].
. W(I)l(L)iam S(L) .(Y|E).
.{R}ichard Cowl . . . [Y].
. John Low(I)ne.
. Samuell Crosse.
. A(L|E]xander Co(O)k{E}.
----------------------------------------------------------
*STONE*, n. [OE. ston, *STAN*; akin to Old Saxon *STEN*,
... G. stein, Sw. *STEN*, Gr. a pebble.]
..........................................................
Prob. of 'St(e)nley' or 'St(a)nley' ~ 1 in 2,500,000
.................................................................
Prob. (at least) 6 of the 7[ST(e)NLEY] guys were Lord *STRANGE's*
Men while only (at most) 3 of the other 19 PA's were ~ 1 in 450
----------------------------------------------------------
. Samuel Gilburn{E}.
.[R]obert Armi(N).
. Will(I)am Ostl(E)r.
.(N)athan Field.
.........................
. John Underwoo . . . [D].
.{N}icholas T(O)ole . {Y}.
. William Eccl[E]ston {E}.
. Joseph Taylo . . . .{R}.
. Robert Be[N]fiel . .{D}.
. Robe(R)t Gough . . .{E}.
. Richar{D} Robinso . {N}.
. John Shancke.
. John Rice.
----------------------------------------------------------
.........................................................
. . . . . . . <= *26* =>
.
. [W i l l i a m S h a k e s p e a r e] R i c .h. a r d B
. (U) r b a(D)g e.J o h n H e m m i n g s.A u .g. u s t i
. (N) e P h i l l i p[S]W i l l i a m K e m p [T] T h o m
. (A) s P o o p(e)G e o r g e B r y a(N)H e n .r. y C o n
. [D] e l l.W i l(L)i a m S l(Y|E|R}i c h a r .d. C o w l
. [Y] J o h n L o w(I)n e.S a m u e l l C r o .s. s e.A l
. [E] x a n d e r C o(O)k{E}S a m u e l G i l .b. u r n E
. [R] o b e r t A r m i(N)W i l l i a m O s t .l. E r N a
. .t. h a n F i e l d.J o h n U n d e r w o o [D] N i c h
. .o. l a s T o o l e{Y}W i l l i a m E c c l [E] s t o n
. .e. J o s e p h T a y l o r.R o b e r t B e [N] f i e l
. .d.
(UNA) 26 : personification of "Truth"
........................
[DYER] 26
[NED] -26
------------------------------------------------------------
<<If you do want posterity to note these things take your best examples, present them in an easy to read form, and give them a context. They will just get lost otherwise.>>
............................................................
. . amuse myself with an interesting puzzle!
My work has already inspired Alan Green & Alexander Waugh
---------------------------------------------------
There are at least 2 anti-Stratfordian cypher-mongers
who are attempting to make it *an exact science* by
. http://youtu.be/B-2AaElwQP0
. http://youtu.be/uDlfct74HC4
. http://youtu.be/HU2p1i4_2Rs
---------------------------------------------------
I much prefer having competent anti-Stratfordian
cypher-monger competition (than incompetent followers).
------------------------------------------------------------
<<BTW I had a go at authorial ELSs in Virgil and Ovid and even got an interested reply from one academic. It's quite common amongst classics scholars to look for acrostics and telestics, even if they speak somewhat apologetically of 'men in white coats'. I think the way Latin was written without spaces to some extent might encourage ELSs>>
Anything that distracts you from promoting your disgusting politics has to be good.
------------------------------------------
Art N.
I wouldn't regard myself as one of your followers. I accept the possibility that there may be something in what you say.

I mentioned some of the work being done in Latin because I thought it might be if interest and assistance to you, that's all.
How do you know how much time I spend on promoting politics? I'd say virtually none.

Why do you apparently find it impossible to have a reasonable discussion about things of mutual interest just because we have differing views on some political questions?

Peter
Peter Nockolds
2021-05-20 21:36:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Neuendorffer
---------------------------------------------
<<I assume you post your ELSs here as a record for posterity.>>
....................................................
It is my *searchable* card file
-------------------------------------------------
Its supposed to be a discussion group, not your personal file.
You've annoyed the hell out of a lot of people.
. . . . Good!
....................................................
... that also hopefully catches someones attention.
It also serves as a dateable record for posterity.
-------------------------------------------
<<Obviously it's possible to write using ELSs
but I think difficult to write good poetry or prose
incorporating and ELS, have you tried?>>
I'm a physicist. The extent of my poetry or prose would
be on the order of: "THE SPANISH SHIPS HAVE SAILED."
------------------------------------------------------------------
https://tinyurl.com/4x9956pu
_Secrets of the Dedication to Shakespeare’s Sonnets_
Originally published in THE OXFORDIAN, Volume 2, 1999
.
. . . John M. Rollett
.
But what I was really hoping to find was examples of Elizabethan ciphers. This took quite a long time, basically because there aren’t any. None have survived, although several people at the time did describe various useful techniques which might have been used, for all we know. (Strictly speaking, one should class acrostics as very simple ciphers. The Elizabethans were certainly fond of them, and quite a lot do survive, especially in poetry.) The only example of a cipher I was able to find was in a biography of John Dee, the Elizabethan savant and astrologer (he was instructed by Robert Dudley to choose an auspicious day for the Queen’s Coronation, and many people would agree that he did a good job). Here (left) is the example his biographer gave to illustrate a method described by John Dee. This reads, going down and up the columns,
“The Spanish ships have sailed.” The message would be sent off,
reading across, as T H S S A H S H E I E I I V L S N P A E P A S H D.
To someone intercepting it, it would obviously proclaim itself as a coded message and to decode it, all one has to do is to count the number of letters––25––and write it out again in a 5 by 5 square. It is amusing to learn that Dee regarded this as “a childish cryptogram such as eny man of knowledge shud be able to resolve.”
..................
. . <= 5 =>
.
. T H S S {A}
. H S H E {I}
. E I I V {L}
. S N P A {E}
. P A S H {D}
..............................
THE SPANISH SHIPS HAVE SAILED
{DELIA} = chaste Artemis = Queen Elizabeth.
-------------------------------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delia
<<{DELIA} is a feminine given name, either taken from an epithet
of the Greek *moon goddess* Artemis or else representing a
short form of A{DELIA}, Be{DELIA}, Cor{DELIA} or O{DELIA}.>>
-----------------------------------------------------------
There are numerous examples of Jacobians writing *acrostic*
poetry; why would ELS poetry or prose be any harder?
1) For the same reason Jacobians wrote *acrostic* poetry.
2) As a hidden record for posterity.
-------------------------------------------------
Acrostics are easy to spot, you don't need to wait for posterity.
That's why #2) was *included* with #1).
-------------------------------------------------
ELSs is would need to have the key handed down orally.
I accept that as a possibility.
.......................................................
David Roper suggests that: <H{I}NT>s to the skip code #
-----------------------------------------------------------
David Roper: "{SO TEST} Him, *I UOW* He Is Edward De Uere"
.............................................................
_______________ . . <= 34 =>
. T E R. R. A. T E .. [G] .I T,PO. PULUSMÆRE ______... TO. LYMPUSHABE. T
.........................................................................
. S T A. Y. P. A S .. [S] .E N GE. RWHYGOEST _ _ _ _ . TH. OVBYSOFAST. R
. E A D. I. F. T . (H)[O] .V C AN. STWHOM _ [E] .[N] .VIO. VSDEATHHAT. H
.*P L A <S> T* W . (I){T} <H{I}NT> HISMON _ [U] (M)[E] NT *SHAKSPEARE* W
. I T H <W> H. O . (M){E} .Q{U}IC. KNATVR _ [E D] (I)[D]E *WHOSENAMED* O
. T H D <E> C. K Y... {S} .T{O}MB. EFARMO _ [R E] t (H) E. NCOSTSIEHA. L
. L Y T <H> E. H A-.. {T} .H{W}RI. TTLEAV _ [E]S. L. I. V. INGARTBVTP. A
. G E T. O. S. E R.... V. .E H IS. WITT
.......................................................
[EUERE][DE] 34
{SO TEST}.. 34
{I UOW}.... 34
<HEWS>.... -34
------------------------------------------------------------
*125* is the gematric number, being the sum of the English
characters for PHILIP SIDNEI = [(15+8+9+11+9+15)+(18+9+4+13+5+9)]
-------------------------------------------------
English or Latin? Do you have any explicit evidence for
the use of English gematria. Was the alphabet fixed?
. . 24 letter alphabet.
(I wrote that piece for your benefit knowing your interest in numerology,)
------------------------------------------------------------
.......................................................
. . . . . Sonnet *125*
. WEr't ought to me I "bore the canopy",
. With my extern the outward honoring,
. Or layd great bases {For} eternity,
. Which proues more [S]hort then wast or ruining?
. Haue [I] not seene dwellers on forme an[D] fauor
. Lose all,and more by payi[N]g too much rent
. For compound sw[E]et;Forgoing simple sauor,
. Pitt[I]full thriuors in their gazing spent.
. Noe,let me be obsequious in thy heart,
. And take thou my oblacion,poore but free,
. Which is not mixt with seconds,knows no art,
. But mutuall render onely me for thee.
. Hence,thou subbornd Informer, a trew soule
. When most impeacht,stands least in thy controule.
.......................................................
. . . . . <= *26* =>
.
. {F o r} e t e r n i t y,W h i c h p r o u e s m o r e
. [S] h o r t t h e n w a s t o r r u i n i n g?H a u e
. [I] n o t s e e n e d w e l l e r s o n f o r m e a n
. [D] f a u o r L o s e a l l,a n d m o r e b y p a y i
. [N] g t o o m u c h r e n t F o r c o m p o u n d s w
. [E] e t;F o r g o i n g s i m p l e s a u o r,P i t t
. [I] f u l l t h r i u o r s i n t h e i r g a z i n g
.
{For}[SIDNEI] *26* : starting in 3rd line.
---------------------------------------------------
. . . . . Sonnet 47
.
. BEtwixt mine eye and heart a league is tooke,
. And each doth good turnes now vnto the other,
. When that mine eye is famisht {For} a looke,
. Or heart in loue with [S]ighes himselfe doth smother;
. W[I]th my loues picture then my eye [D]oth feast,
. An other tim[E] mine eye is my hearts guest,
. And [I]n his thoughts of loue doth share a part.
. So either by thy picture or my loue,
. Thy seife away,are present still with me,
. For thou nor farther then my thoughts canst moue,
. And I am still with them,and they with thee.
. Or if they sleepe, thy picture in my sight
. Awakes my heart,to hearts and eyes delight.
.......................................................
. . . . . <= *26* =>
.
. {F o r} a l o o k e,O r h e a r t i n l o u e w i t h
. [S] i g h e s h i m s e l f e d o t h s m o t h e r;W
. [I] t h m y l o u e s p i c t u r e t h e n m y e y e
. [D] o t h f e a s t,A n d t o t h e p a i n t e d b a
. [N] q u e t b i d s m y h e a r t:A n o t h e r t i m
. [E] m i n e e y e i s m y h e a r t s g u e s t,A n d
. [I] n h i s t h o u g h t s
.
{For}[SIDNEI] *26* : starting in 3rd line.
.......................................................
Prob. of 2{For}[SIDNEI]s same skip ~ 1 in 34,000,000
.................................................
Shortest {For}[SIDNEI] skip in KJV : 869
Shortest {For}[SIDNEI] skip in Moby Dick : 2818
----------------------------------------------------------
. . . . . . . . *26* days
.......................................................
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Sidney#Injury_and_death
<<[Sir Philip Sidney (30 November 1554 - 17 October 1586)]
joined Sir John Norris in the Battle of Zutphen, fighting for
the Protestant cause against the Spanish. During the battle,
he was shot in the thigh & died of gangrene *26* days later.>>
------------------------------------------------------------
Two 26 SIDNEI ELS's You have repeatability
and two control samples. Sounds promising.
Philip Sidney started to versify the Psalms.
Sister Mary finished the job. I just bought a copy.
26 = the name of God in Hebrew.
125 - 47 = 3 x 26.
---------------------------------------------------------
"The Names of the *26* Principall Actors in all these Playes"
.........................................................
.[William Shakespeare]
. Richard B(ū)rba(D)ge.
. John Hemmings.
. Augusti(ñ)e Phillip [S].
. William Kemp . . . .[T].
. Thom(ā)s Poop . . . (e).
. George Brya . . . . (N).
. Henry C(O)n[D]el . .[L].
. W(I)l(L)iam S(L) .(Y|E).
.{R}ichard Cowl . . . [Y].
. John Low(I)ne.
. Samuell Crosse.
. A(L|E]xander Co(O)k{E}.
----------------------------------------------------------
*STONE*, n. [OE. ston, *STAN*; akin to Old Saxon *STEN*,
... G. stein, Sw. *STEN*, Gr. a pebble.]
..........................................................
Prob. of 'St(e)nley' or 'St(a)nley' ~ 1 in 2,500,000
.................................................................
Prob. (at least) 6 of the 7[ST(e)NLEY] guys were Lord *STRANGE's*
Men while only (at most) 3 of the other 19 PA's were ~ 1 in 450
----------------------------------------------------------
. Samuel Gilburn{E}.
.[R]obert Armi(N).
. Will(I)am Ostl(E)r.
.(N)athan Field.
.........................
. John Underwoo . . . [D].
.{N}icholas T(O)ole . {Y}.
. William Eccl[E]ston {E}.
. Joseph Taylo . . . .{R}.
. Robert Be[N]fiel . .{D}.
. Robe(R)t Gough . . .{E}.
. Richar{D} Robinso . {N}.
. John Shancke.
. John Rice.
----------------------------------------------------------
.........................................................
. . . . . . . <= *26* =>
.
. [W i l l i a m S h a k e s p e a r e] R i c .h. a r d B
. (U) r b a(D)g e.J o h n H e m m i n g s.A u .g. u s t i
. (N) e P h i l l i p[S]W i l l i a m K e m p [T] T h o m
. (A) s P o o p(e)G e o r g e B r y a(N)H e n .r. y C o n
. [D] e l l.W i l(L)i a m S l(Y|E|R}i c h a r .d. C o w l
. [Y] J o h n L o w(I)n e.S a m u e l l C r o .s. s e.A l
. [E] x a n d e r C o(O)k{E}S a m u e l G i l .b. u r n E
. [R] o b e r t A r m i(N)W i l l i a m O s t .l. E r N a
. .t. h a n F i e l d.J o h n U n d e r w o o [D] N i c h
. .o. l a s T o o l e{Y}W i l l i a m E c c l [E] s t o n
. .e. J o s e p h T a y l o r.R o b e r t B e [N] f i e l
. .d.
(UNA) 26 : personification of "Truth"
........................
[DYER] 26
[NED] -26
------------------------------------------------------------
<<If you do want posterity to note these things take your best examples, present them in an easy to read form, and give them a context. They will just get lost otherwise.>>
............................................................
. . amuse myself with an interesting puzzle!
My work has already inspired Alan Green & Alexander Waugh
---------------------------------------------------
There are at least 2 anti-Stratfordian cypher-mongers
who are attempting to make it *an exact science* by
. http://youtu.be/B-2AaElwQP0
. http://youtu.be/uDlfct74HC4
. http://youtu.be/HU2p1i4_2Rs
---------------------------------------------------
I much prefer having competent anti-Stratfordian
cypher-monger competition (than incompetent followers).
------------------------------------------------------------
<<BTW I had a go at authorial ELSs in Virgil and Ovid and even got an interested reply from one academic. It's quite common amongst classics scholars to look for acrostics and telestics, even if they speak somewhat apologetically of 'men in white coats'. I think the way Latin was written without spaces to some extent might encourage ELSs>>
Anything that distracts you from promoting your disgusting politics has to be good.
------------------------------------------
Art N.
I wouldn't regard myself as one of your followers. I accept the possibility that there may be something in what you say.
I mentioned some of the work being done in Latin because I thought it might be if interest and assistance to you, that's all.
How do you know how much time I spend on promoting politics? I'd say virtually none.
Why do you apparently find it impossible to have a reasonable discussion about things of mutual interest just because we have differing views on some political questions?
Peter
I followed the Alan Green link. If you have inspired him he didn't mention it. I'll be very pleased for you if you did because you've worked enough at this.
Arthur Neuendorffer
2021-05-21 03:01:43 UTC
Permalink
My work has already inspired Alan Green & Alexander Waugh
in their studies to locate buried Masonic Treasures:
---------------------------------------------------
There are at least 2 anti-Stratfordian cypher-mongers
who are attempting to make it *an exact science* by
claiming *a priori* where written evidence might lie:

1) Alan Green in the Stratford altar:
. http://youtu.be/B-2AaElwQP0

2) Alexander Waugh in Westminster Abbey "St. Blaise" altar:
. http://youtu.be/uDlfct74HC4
. http://youtu.be/HU2p1i4_2Rs
---------------------------------------------------
I much prefer having competent anti-Stratfordian
cypher-monger competition (than incompetent followers).
-------------------------------------------------------
Post by Peter Nockolds
I wouldn't regard myself as one of your followers.
........................................................
No...you're really more of a creepy KGB stalker.
--------------------------------------------------------
Post by Peter Nockolds
I accept the possibility that there may be something in what you say.
........................................................
You have no idea what that means to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Peter Nockolds wrote:

I followed the Alan Green link. If you have inspired him he didn't mention it.
........................................................
No...he wouldn't at this stage,.. ever since I let Alan know
how unpleased I am with his delves into pseudo-science.

You can tell how unhappy Alan is when my name is mentioned:



Rollett made wonderful discoveries and I'm just happy to provide
the bridge between Rollett & the likes of Green & Waugh.
------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Peter Nockolds
2021-05-21 04:44:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Neuendorffer
My work has already inspired Alan Green & Alexander Waugh
---------------------------------------------------
There are at least 2 anti-Stratfordian cypher-mongers
who are attempting to make it *an exact science* by
. http://youtu.be/B-2AaElwQP0
. http://youtu.be/uDlfct74HC4
. http://youtu.be/HU2p1i4_2Rs
---------------------------------------------------
I much prefer having competent anti-Stratfordian
cypher-monger competition (than incompetent followers).
-------------------------------------------------------
Post by Peter Nockolds
I wouldn't regard myself as one of your followers.
........................................................
No...you're really more of a creepy KGB stalker.
--------------------------------------------------------
Post by Peter Nockolds
I accept the possibility that there may be something in what you say.
........................................................
You have no idea what that means to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------
I followed the Alan Green link. If you have inspired him he didn't mention it.
........................................................
No...he wouldn't at this stage,.. ever since I let Alan know
how unpleased I am with his delves into pseudo-science.
http://youtu.be/Gg5r1K-eZCA
Rollett made wonderful discoveries and I'm just happy to provide
the bridge between Rollett & the likes of Green & Waugh.
------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
I'm not the only person you are unpleased with.

Anyway, have a look at the Sidney Psalms. You'll particularly like 125 first stanza. 136 has 26 couplets ending alternately ever/never.

Peter
Arthur Neuendorffer
2021-05-21 13:39:43 UTC
Permalink
My work has already inspired Alan Green & Alexander Waugh
in their studies to locate buried Masonic Treasures:
---------------------------------------------------
There are at least 2 anti-Stratfordian cypher-mongers
who are attempting to make it *an exact science* by
claiming *a priori* where written evidence might lie:

1) Alan Green in the Stratford altar:
. http://youtu.be/B-2AaElwQP0

2) Alexander Waugh in Westminster Abbey "St. Blaise" altar:
. http://youtu.be/uDlfct74HC4
. http://youtu.be/HU2p1i4_2Rs
---------------------------------------------------
I much prefer having competent anti-Stratfordian
cypher-monger competition (than incompetent followers).
-------------------------------------------------------
Post by Peter Nockolds
I wouldn't regard myself as one of your followers.
........................................................
No...you're really more of a creepy KGB stalker.
--------------------------------------------------------
Post by Peter Nockolds
I accept the possibility that there may be something in what you say.
........................................................
You have no idea what that means to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Peter Nockolds wrote:

<<I followed the Alan Green link.
If you have inspired him he didn't mention it.>>
........................................................
No...he wouldn't at this stage,.. ever since I let Alan know
how unpleased I am with his delves into pseudo-science.

You can tell how unhappy Alan is when my name is mentioned:

http://youtu.be/Gg5r1K-eZCA

Rollett made wonderful discoveries and I'm just happy to provide
the bridge between Rollett & the likes of Green & Waugh.>>
------------------------------------------------------
Peter Nockolds wrote:

<<I'm not the only person you are unpleased with.>>
.......................................................
. More disappointed than unpleased, perhaps.

I believe that Alan's *gutsy move* to scientifically examine
the Stratford altar will mark a high point in authorship studies.

It is thus too bad that Alan also delves into pseudo-science
(; perhaps because it is far more popular than authorship studies).

Alexander Waugh has problems of his own
but, at least, he stays clear of pseudo-science.

Alexander was more directly inspired by Alan than by myself.

IMO, Alex solved the *Westminster Abbey mystery* that had
so frustrated me since I couldn't do it from a distance
nor *COULD I GET ANYONE TO HELP ME WITH THE PROJECT!!*
------------------------------------------------------
Peter Nockolds wrote:

<<Anyway, have a look at the Sidney Psalms.
You'll particularly like 125 first stanza.
136 has 26 couplets ending alternately ever/never.>>
..................................................
The Sidney faction was deeply involved in the Shakespeare
coverup and they may well have been into numerology as well.
----------------------------------------------------
Art N.
Peter Nockolds
2021-05-21 15:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Neuendorffer
My work has already inspired Alan Green & Alexander Waugh
---------------------------------------------------
There are at least 2 anti-Stratfordian cypher-mongers
who are attempting to make it *an exact science* by
. http://youtu.be/B-2AaElwQP0
. http://youtu.be/uDlfct74HC4
. http://youtu.be/HU2p1i4_2Rs
---------------------------------------------------
I much prefer having competent anti-Stratfordian
cypher-monger competition (than incompetent followers).
-------------------------------------------------------
Post by Peter Nockolds
I wouldn't regard myself as one of your followers.
........................................................
No...you're really more of a creepy KGB stalker.
--------------------------------------------------------
Post by Peter Nockolds
I accept the possibility that there may be something in what you say.
........................................................
You have no idea what that means to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------
<<I followed the Alan Green link.
If you have inspired him he didn't mention it.>>
........................................................
No...he wouldn't at this stage,.. ever since I let Alan know
how unpleased I am with his delves into pseudo-science.
http://youtu.be/Gg5r1K-eZCA
Rollett made wonderful discoveries and I'm just happy to provide
the bridge between Rollett & the likes of Green & Waugh.>>
------------------------------------------------------
<<I'm not the only person you are unpleased with.>>
.......................................................
. More disappointed than unpleased, perhaps.
I believe that Alan's *gutsy move* to scientifically examine
the Stratford altar will mark a high point in authorship studies.
It is thus too bad that Alan also delves into pseudo-science
(; perhaps because it is far more popular than authorship studies).
Alexander Waugh has problems of his own
but, at least, he stays clear of pseudo-science.
Alexander was more directly inspired by Alan than by myself.
IMO, Alex solved the *Westminster Abbey mystery* that had
so frustrated me since I couldn't do it from a distance
nor *COULD I GET ANYONE TO HELP ME WITH THE PROJECT!!*
------------------------------------------------------
<<Anyway, have a look at the Sidney Psalms.
You'll particularly like 125 first stanza.
136 has 26 couplets ending alternately ever/never.>>
..................................................
The Sidney faction was deeply involved in the Shakespeare
coverup and they may well have been into numerology as well.
----------------------------------------------------
Art N.
Art

I am sorry that when I did finally get to go round the Abbey I had forgotten about taking photos for you but I doubt that would have helped you solve the mystery.

Psalm 125 trans Mary Sidney, lines 1 to 4

As Zion standeth VERy firmely steadfast
NeVER once SHAKing: so on high Jehovah
Who his hope buildeth, VERy firmly abideth
EVER abideth

A VER on every line.

She translates two Psalms 111 and 117 as acrostics. Unfortunately I don't think there's an original spelling version online.

Peter
Peter Nockolds
2021-05-21 16:16:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Nockolds
Post by Arthur Neuendorffer
My work has already inspired Alan Green & Alexander Waugh
---------------------------------------------------
There are at least 2 anti-Stratfordian cypher-mongers
who are attempting to make it *an exact science* by
. http://youtu.be/B-2AaElwQP0
. http://youtu.be/uDlfct74HC4
. http://youtu.be/HU2p1i4_2Rs
---------------------------------------------------
I much prefer having competent anti-Stratfordian
cypher-monger competition (than incompetent followers).
-------------------------------------------------------
Post by Peter Nockolds
I wouldn't regard myself as one of your followers.
........................................................
No...you're really more of a creepy KGB stalker.
--------------------------------------------------------
Post by Peter Nockolds
I accept the possibility that there may be something in what you say.
........................................................
You have no idea what that means to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------
<<I followed the Alan Green link.
If you have inspired him he didn't mention it.>>
........................................................
No...he wouldn't at this stage,.. ever since I let Alan know
how unpleased I am with his delves into pseudo-science.
http://youtu.be/Gg5r1K-eZCA
Rollett made wonderful discoveries and I'm just happy to provide
the bridge between Rollett & the likes of Green & Waugh.>>
------------------------------------------------------
<<I'm not the only person you are unpleased with.>>
.......................................................
. More disappointed than unpleased, perhaps.
I believe that Alan's *gutsy move* to scientifically examine
the Stratford altar will mark a high point in authorship studies.
It is thus too bad that Alan also delves into pseudo-science
(; perhaps because it is far more popular than authorship studies).
Alexander Waugh has problems of his own
but, at least, he stays clear of pseudo-science.
Alexander was more directly inspired by Alan than by myself.
IMO, Alex solved the *Westminster Abbey mystery* that had
so frustrated me since I couldn't do it from a distance
nor *COULD I GET ANYONE TO HELP ME WITH THE PROJECT!!*
------------------------------------------------------
<<Anyway, have a look at the Sidney Psalms.
You'll particularly like 125 first stanza.
136 has 26 couplets ending alternately ever/never.>>
..................................................
The Sidney faction was deeply involved in the Shakespeare
coverup and they may well have been into numerology as well.
----------------------------------------------------
Art N.
Art
I am sorry that when I did finally get to go round the Abbey I had forgotten about taking photos for you but I doubt that would have helped you solve the mystery.
Psalm 125 trans Mary Sidney, lines 1 to 4
As Zion standeth VERy firmely steadfast
NeVER once SHAKing: so on high Jehovah
Who his hope buildeth, VERy firmly abideth
EVER abideth
A VER on every line.
She translates two Psalms 111 and 117 as acrostics. Unfortunately I don't think there's an original spelling version online.
Peter
No...you're really more of a creepy KGB stalker.

You're out of date, it's FSB these days. I know you have to see conspiracies in this line of work but just because I may have expressed some sympathy for views held by tens of millions of Russians doesn't mean I have anything to do with the FSB.

Peter

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